Are you afraid to die?

[Nikolai]

I've never seen it used before. Perhaps I visit the wrong conservative Christian places.

Anyhow, I guess we all understood what he wanted to say, and then it get's the job done, doesn't it?

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Nikolai


Good analogy or not, it makes the job done. The difference is, the indirect proof we're talking of here is on a personal level and can't be passed on in the same way.

Er, it seems to me the difference is that the existence of New York has been independently empirically proven millions of times, can be empirically proven by anyone at any time (just go there), is well documented in literature, pictures, movies, etc. (again, all independently) and doesn't require any form of faith or belief.

In other words, it's absolutely nothing like heaven and hell.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Anyhow, I guess we all understood what he wanted to say, and then it get's the job done, doesn't it?

Ehrm, no. You can verify the existence of New York if you buy a ticket and go to it - that you can't do with a claim on religion.

[Nikolai]

Wrong, it's just that you can't order a ticket to return afterwards.

[Arrian]

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Wrong, it's just that you can't order a ticket to return afterwards.

Yeah, but that actually invalidates the analogy - doesn't it ?

[Ben Kenobi]

The analogy, however, wasn't. It's ok, I've seen it used before (by Ben, IIRC). It seems to be one of those conservative Christian talking points. :shrug:

It's not my own. I've read it somewhere, but I can't remember who exactly said it. It's an argument from epistemology that argues how most of what we know comes not from experience but from authority. If we based most of what we know on experience then we would know precious little.

It has nothing to do with Christianity per se, but it is an important argument wrt epistemology. Perhaps Aggie can figure it out.

I just like the New York analogy, because if we were an african bushman New York would seem like heaven.

[Ben Kenobi]

As for the analogy, no analogy is perfect.

The point is most of what you know is because other people have told you about it.

[Arrian]

most of what we know comes not from experience but from authority.

Granted, and put like that the example works. When used as an analogy for heaven/hell, though, it doesn't. At least not in the context of a debate on Apolyton, because most of us could - should we want to badly enough - get a ticket to NYC. Unlike Heaven & Hell, it is entirely possible to go to NYC yourself, see that it does, in fact, exist, and return.

because if we were an african bushman New York would seem like heaven

Or Hell.

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

As for the source it comes from one of my favourite books.

CS. Lewis' Mere Christianity, but I am sure that it does not originate with him.

Do not be scared by the word authority. Believing things on authority only means believing them because you have told them by someone you think is trustworthy. Ninety-nine per cent of the things you believe are believed on authority. I believe there is such a place as New York. I have not seen it myself. I could not prove by abstract reasoning there the must be such a place. I believe it because reliable people have told me so. The ordinary man believes in the Solar System, atoms, evolution, and the circulation of the blood on authority — because the scientists say so. Every historical statement in the world is believed on authority. None of us has seen the Norman Conquest or the defeat of the Armada. None of us could prove them by pure logic as you prove a thing in mathematics. We believe them simply because people who did see them have left writings that tell us about them: in fact, on authority. A man who jibbed at authority in other things as some people do in religion would have to be content to know nothing all his life. Source > Mere Christianity (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1996 [first published 1943]), pp.63-64 (241 reads)

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I just like the New York analogy, because if we were an african bushman New York would seem like heaven.

I'm not quite sure - my guess would be that they would think it was hell

Edit : Damn you Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
As for the analogy, no analogy is perfect.

The point is most of what you know is because other people have told you about it.

The analogy that I know of is not how we know about Heaven and hell, but how we know about God. I know it from the Kuzari, by Halevi, and its probably in other neoPlatonist works - we know that India exists and has a king, even though we've never been there (this is a long time ago, folks) because we've seen gifts from the king of India, of a royal nature, etc. So we know God by looking at his works, etc.

Im not sure how that becomes an arguement for heaven-hell, unless the argument for God is then extended to an argument for scripture (which is a huge leap) and then to an interpretation of scripture that provides a basis for H&H (also a leap, at least for the Hebrew scriptures, and one which the Sadduccees never made at all, and the Rabbinite Jews made only for Heaven (sheol is not identified with hell, and the only negative afterlife, gehinnom, is more like purgatory), and generally with far less specificity than the Christians.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well Christians believe a man has been there, came back and then told us all about it.

Neoplatonists make sense, since CS Lewis was one and that's where he stole the idea.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Well Christians believe a man has been there, came back and then told us all about it.

Well you certainly cant apply the same logic to hell, now can you?

[Kontiki]

I guess we can credit CS Lewis with one piss-poor analogy, then - or rather, several, based on that quotation. I can see why it would be one of your favorite books.