Do the Kaczynski twins want to destroy Europe?

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Heresson
Also, there is a reason between "drawing Ukraine into german sphere of influence" and support Ukrainians in their fight to free themselves from russian sphere of influence. Poland is in EU, also thanks to Germany, and I do not think it is in german sphere of influence other than economical.

My point is that it seems that many Poles are suspicious of German motives. With that in mind, I find it surprising that they'd want Germany to play a more active role in the affairs of a country to the east, especially one that they tried to colonize 60 years ago. It seems a bit hypocritical. Some Poles are irritated now that Germany's not more active towards the Ukraine. If Germany did take an active stance towards the Ukraine, then I bet that those same Poles would be irritated and suspicious that Germany was returning to its old imperialistic ways.

Whether or not Ukraine would actually be in Germany's sphere of influence after such activity is a bit irrelevant, because those who hold suspicions against Germany would believe that Germany was trying to do so.

Will You put past crimes behind in Germany - Israel relations? It is never completely possible.
Germans should have a bit more sensitivity.

I think that the Jewish case is different. It wasn't done for any geopolitical reason, it was done out of pure hate. The Slavs were looked down upon as inferior, but the Jews were looked at as evil vermin. There was no reciprocity afterwards, either. The Jews didn't turn around and kill millions of Germans after the war. Germany has reason to be sorry for what its government has done to the Jews. The Jews have no reason to feel sorry for anything they did to the Germans, because they didn't do anything.
IMO, that's why Germans feel especially sorry for the Holocaust. The Holocaust was an act of hatred against the defenseless on an unprecedented scale and conducted with industrialized efficiency and cold calculation.

As to the German-Polish relationships, things aren't as clear cut. The Germans were the agressors, and their conquest of Poland was partially motivated out of ethnic hatred. However, there were also more traditional geostrategic reasons for their actions towards Poland. It doesn't excuse starting the war, but at least it makes more sense than the Holocaust. You can point to some motivating factor other than hate, and it's a motivating factor that many countries have acted upon over the years. Germany shouldn't feel specially guilty for what it did to Poland, because what it did to Poland wasn't unique.

Another big issue is reciprocity. The Germans started it, the Poles and Russians finished it. The ethnic hate and land grabbing of the Germans at the beginning of the war was matched by the Poles at the end of the war. IMO, neither side has the clear moral advantage.

With all that in mind, I think that it's easier for Germany and Poland to forgive their respective pasts than it is for the Jews to forgive Germany. However, I think that even the Jews should start to be more forgiving towards Germany as those involved in the Holocaust die. There's no sense in holding a grudge against people for what their grandparents did to each other.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Serb
Really? Explain yourself!

Kaliningrad is the one area is Europe (outside of the Balkans) that I could see developing into a political problem. It's an exclave separated from Russia by hundreds of kilometers. It's surrounded by EU member states, most of whom share mutual hostility with Russia. K-Grad is closer to Berlin than it is to Moscow, and many of its Russian citizens have never even been to mainland Russia. Furthermore, K-grad seems to be a nuisance area, with a high AIDS rate and a great deal of criminal activity. The EU would probably be better off if K-Grad were independant from Russia

Russia is not going to let that happen easily. K-grad is important Russia in two main ways. It is Russia's only port on the Baltic that doesn't freeze, and it's the official home of the Russian Baltic fleet (well, that and Tsushima Strait ) K-Grad is too strategically important to relinquish without a struggle or serious compensation

Furthermore, K-grad is a war trophy. It's a symbol of Russia's victory over Germany, and losing it would be like desecrating the Russian soldiers who died to take it. IMO, that's why K-Grad retains its Soviet era name whereas other cities (Leningrad, Kalinin) changed their back to their pre-Soviet names. Changing K-grad's name back to Königsberg (or Kyonig) would be a reminder that the city hasn't been Russian for very long, and might inspire those who live in K-grad now to seek independance.

All of these things make Kaliningrad an interesting issue. It's not a big problem now, but I could see it generating great friction in the future. It's the only non-Balkan area of Europe that has the potential to cause such trouble. It's the only territorial situation made worse by the aftermath of WW2. That's why I brought it up.

[The Vagabond]

Gibraltar is an issue bearing some resemblance to Kaliningrad.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Wycoff


My point is that it seems that many Poles are suspicious of German motives. With that in mind, I find it surprising that they'd want Germany to play a more active role in the affairs of a country to the east, especially one that they tried to colonize 60 years ago. It seems a bit hypocritical. Some Poles are irritated now that Germany's not more active towards the Ukraine. If Germany did take an active stance towards the Ukraine, then I bet that those same Poles would be irritated and suspicious that Germany was returning to its old imperialistic ways.

Not at all. What made You think so? It's not about Germany having some policy towards the east, it's about Germany selling its eastern neighbours and allies to Russia. Poland is upset about Russian-German treaties contrary to polish, ukrainian, lithuanian, latvian, and belarusian and EU in general as well interests.

Whether or not Ukraine would actually be in Germany's sphere of influence after such activity is a bit irrelevant, because those who hold suspicions against Germany would believe that Germany was trying to do so.

No. Ukraine is miles away from Germany. Germany doesn't have any troubles with Germany at all, at least western Ukraine.

I think that the Jewish case is different. It wasn't done for any geopolitical reason, it was done out of pure hate.

Does it make it any different if You want to murder someone out of pure hate or for geopolitical reasons?

There was no reciprocity afterwards, either.

Actually, there were such cases in Poland. Just a couple of them, but well, how can You expect lonely survivors to be able to take their revenge?

The Jews didn't turn around and kill millions of Germans after the war.

Poles didn't as well. Actually, no-one did kill "millions of Germans"

Germany has reason to be sorry for what its government has done to the Jews. The Jews have no reason to feel sorry for anything they did to the Germans, because they didn't do anything.

What Poland should be sorry about? The expulsions were ordered by the Allies, not by Poland. So were the border changes. There were acts of violence towards Germans, but not in accordance to any order by any polish gouverment, not to mention polish legal gouverment.
You seem to think that there was a balance in ww2; You suffered - we suffered. I completely disagree with it. A punishment of a crime, even harsh, doesn't make a criminal a victim.

As to the German-Polish relationships, things aren't as clear cut. The Germans were the agressors, and their conquest of Poland was partially motivated out of ethnic hatred. However, there were also more traditional geostrategic reasons for their actions towards Poland. It doesn't excuse starting the war, but at least it makes more sense than the Holocaust. You can point to some motivating factor other than hate, and it's a motivating factor that many countries have acted upon over the years. Germany shouldn't feel specially guilty for what it did to Poland, because what it did to Poland wasn't unique.

It was unique, though different. Other countries were to lose part of their territory, not cease to exist completely.
Germans haven't decided to create even a puppet state or give autonomy, like in Czech case.
Even GeneralGubern was supposed to be cleared of Poles and settled by Germans - a plan that was started being realised during the war already. Warsaw was supposed to be destroyed and a small local town built on its place. Warsaw was almost utterly destroyed in fact, which also didn't happen elsewhere.
Unlike elsewhere, polish elites were en masse murdered.
I'm not sure if the system of repression as it existed in Poland was present elsewhere, with starving food ratios (polish +3x, jewish 5,5x smaller than german), and death penalty was almost for every "crime" against the occupation, including hiding Jews etc.
I don't think there were so big resettlements elsewhere as in Poland, with Poles being thrown out from different territories to make place for german colonists.
Also, 3mln of polish compulsory workers compared to 7 mln of them in general shows that Poland was treaten slightly different.

Another big issue is reciprocity. The Germans started it, the Poles and Russians finished it. The ethnic hate and land grabbing of the Germans at the beginning of the war was matched by the Poles at the end of the war. IMO, neither side has the clear moral advantage.

As I have mentioned, polish gouverment didn't want that many gains in the west, nor did polish population.
polish forces that entered Poland and germany were subject to soviet puppet-gouverment anyway.
You must be crazy to claim neither side can claim moral advantage. Even Soviets can, not to mention Poland.

Your stance in fact makes me think that we should not forget about ww2.

Germany lost 1/4 of its territory? Poland lost a half, but, due to the gains in the west, it got reduced to 1/3. Germany had its citizens expelled from territories they were long inhabitating? So did Poland. Germans were mistreated? So were Poles and many other nations, but for 5-6 years, not for max a year or a couple of weeks, like Germans.
It's disgusting that with so many faults and crimes done, Germany can look at itself as a victim and claim that neither side of war had clear moral advantage. Completely disgusting.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Gibraltar is an issue bearing some resemblance to Kaliningrad.

I don't think so. Kaliningrad exclave is much bigger, located between two countries, and historically claimed by three ones. Also, it had its population changed, and is less prosperous than its neighbours, unlike Gibraltar.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Heresson
It's disgusting that with so many faults and crimes done, Germany can look at itself as a victim and claim that neither side of war had clear moral advantage. Completely disgusting.

This isn't what I meant at all. Germany the country was obviously the agressor, and obviously bares grave responsibilty for the war and its consequences. It was at fault, and the expulsion of the German people was a rational consequence. Germany the state got what it deserved, and no one but extremists whackos thinks differently. There's no doubt about that. The Germans were the bad guys in the war, the Poles were the victims in the war. I apologize if I was anything less than crystal clear about that.

All I'm saying is that the war is over, the borders have been set, and no one wants them to be changed. The only area in which moral equivalency comes into to play at all is that I can't see the moral difference between one group of people getting run of their land or another group of people. Germany deserved to lose its territory, but retalliation and mass resettlement against people who may or may not have been involved just on the basis of their ethnicity after the war is difficult to explain in a moral way (even though it's understandible in emotional terms, and even though it makes sense in the context of rough justice. It's easy to understand how someone could justify things by saying "The Germans got a deserved taste of their own medicine." However, we have an old saying that "Two wrongs don't make a right.")

What I'm trying to say is that if you let historical claims dictate future policy, then those sort of emotional considerations can take on a life of their own and override more rational concerns. If things get heated, both sides can bring up issues stemming from resettlements that can make the whole area an emotional mess. This thread is a good example of this. I didn't mean to insult you with my observations, but I obviously did. Just so you know, I'm an American, not German, so in offering my opinion I may accidentally touch on issues in a way that's insensitive and inappropriate.

[BeBMan]

I just read a German article saying that Kaczynski now wants to have Poland's war deaths 39-45 included in the pop calculation for the voting? Is this true or some strange attempt at satire?

[Harovan]

It was a direct translation from the mental home. Just like the yesterday's statement, that "Poles like Germans, while Germans dislike Poles" (LOL) and "Germany is isolating Poland" (ROFL) from the day before.

Can we please ignore them and move on?

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
2-speed Europe

QFT

[Harovan]

At the moment they're playing an amusing "good cop - bad cop" game. Lech "compromise" Kaczynski vs Jaroslaw "veto" Kaczynski. Good potato, bad potato, indeed

[Ecthy]

I hear it would be legally very hard to make a 2 speed Europe since the 'normal' EU already regulates legal issues that would have to be touched by any 'new'/'core' union...

[Provost Harrison]

I'm surprised there has been no British contribution to this thread...

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Gibraltar is an issue bearing some resemblance to Kaliningrad.

...but that is a good place to start

Yes, while the French and Germans moan on and on about stuff, they forget they are not the only big European countries around these parts.

The Poles may have a point though, although this doesn't stop me from thinking they are utterly f**king loony

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
I'm surprised there has been no British contribution to this thread...



...but that is a good place to start

Yes, while the French and Germans moan on and on about stuff, they forget they are not the only big European countries around these parts.

But we're those who are usually oppressing the rest, so if some changes make that more difficult we have every right to complain

[Provost Harrison]

Hey, we've had hudreds of years of experience oppressing up to 2/5ths of the entire planet. You could use our experience

[DAVOUT]

It seems that Tony Blair is now helping the Kac twins to destroy Europe.