Do the Kaczynski twins want to destroy Europe?

[Harovan]

Kaczynski - Polish Theocracy (Pissed)

-10: "We are upset, that you have fallen under the sway of a heathen religion!"
-10: "You declared war on us!"
-10: "You have traded with our worst enemy!"
-10: "You refused to stop trading with our worst enemy!"

[Serb]

And their finall words should be:

Kaczynski - Polish Theocracy (Pissed)

- our words ARE NOT backed with nuclear weapons!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Serb


And their finall words should be:

Kaczynski - Polish Theocracy (Pissed)

- our words ARE NOT backed with nuclear weapons!

They're backed with the emigrant Polish Fifth Columnists.

The Plumbers', Bricklayers' and Electricians' Brigades, coming to a housing estate or renovation near YOU!

[Serb]

Nope. The Polish plumber is still at home.

He says:
"I keep my big red wrench for Polish women only!"

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Serb
Nope. The Polish plumber is still at home.

He says:
"I keep my big red wrench for Polish women only!"

Soon the Polish women will be getting to grips with big German tools...

So critical is the shortage of welders and shipbuilders for Poland’s shipping industry that Poland and Germany are close to an accord that would allow unemployed workers from northern German ports to work in Poland.

The government is also granting work permits to skilled and unskilled laborers from other countries, and in August introduced an incentive plan making it easier to grant the permits to workers from its closest eastern neighbors, Ukraine and Belarus, where wages are far lower than in Poland.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/19/world/europe/19poland.html?ex=1321592400&en=68417278d71332b1&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

The furtive 'furters are here...

[Serb]

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Wycoff


Sorry for a double response, but I found this to to be surprising. It's interesting that you, as a Poe, would be complaining that Germany isn't taking a more active and agressive stance towards the Ukraine. As you know, drawing the Ukraine into the German sphere of influence was a major German goal in both world wars. The Germans made Ukraine (and Poland) a quasi-independant vassal state in the treaty of Brest-Litovsk after WW1. They wanted to colonize and incorporate it into the Reich in WW2.

With that in mind, and with the above discussion centering on how many Poles feel bitterly and suspiciously towards Germany, I don't understand how you can also be angry at them for not exerting more power over the Ukraine. The Ukraine was the a prime goal of the 800 year Drang nach Osten. How can Poles both resent Germans for their past imperialistic attitudes towards the east, yet also castigate them for currently failing to exert more pressure on bringing Ukraine into their sphere of influence. A people as historically sensative as the Poles should be greatful that Germany isn't doing that, shouldn't they?

I don't think there was a deliberate Drang Nach Osten. I don't think Germans were even aware of Ukraine before, not to mention that it only got worthwile after throwing Tatars out of the steppes and introducing agriculture there.
Also, there is a reason between "drawing Ukraine into german sphere of influence" and support Ukrainians in their fight to free themselves from russian sphere of influence. Poland is in EU, also thanks to Germany, and I do not think it is in german sphere of influence other than economical.

Originally posted by Wycoff


The Poles weren't the only people to suffer losses during the middle of the twentieth century. Millions of Germans were displaced from their ancestral homes, places some of them have lived for upwards of 750 years. 1/4 of their country was lost. It's true that their country was the agressor in the second World War, but that doesn't mean that every single German person in Eastern Europe deserved to be killed or expelled from their land.

that is sad indeed, but blaim Stalin and Churchill for that. Poland didn't want Lower Silesia or Western Pommerania, it prefered to keep its eastern provinces, even if they weren't as worthy.

Yet, Poland lost 1/3 of its territory. Germans were expelled once. Poles were expelled by Germans and Soviets during the war, and then once more after the war. Poles used to live in these lands for 650 years, but in the border regions for +1000 years.
I completely agree with your notion that border shifts and atrocities that expulsions surely were.

The bottom line is that the middle of the twentieth century led to atrocities against pretty much every group of people in Central and Eastern Europe.

That is true, but such puting of this matter seems to indicate Germans were not different in that than other nations. And they were.
Don't get me wrong. I was the first one on this forum to mention Lambinowice camp etc. Germans did suffer, and when it comes to the ones in the east, a lot. Surely not all were to blame. But they suffered as a result of actions of their own gouverment. German gouverment, enthusiastically supported by its citizens, started the war and only suffered at the end of it, and only due to its failure. There is a polish proverb: who saws rain, harvests storm. If You do something bad, You're going to get something even worse in return.

The end result, however, is a group of countries with well defined and stable borders (with the one exception being Königsberg / Kaliningrad, something that merits its own thread). People from both sides should accept that there were evil things done to both sides, and that the best way to atone for that past is to stop dwelling on it. No good will come from that.

I agree completely with the first You've written. My own family was expelled from Ukraine, but thanks to that there are hardly any Poles left there (first there were massacres by UPA supported by Germans, then Poles fled, and then the remains were expelled), we can have better relationship with Ukraine.

Indeed, Krolewiec should be polish

That doesn't mean that I'm advising Poles to accept of deny any particular EU proposal. I'm just saying that there needs to be greater German-Pole cooperation, and a greater willingness to leave the past crimes in the past.

Will You put past crimes behind in Germany - Israel relations? It is never completely possible.
Germans should have a bit more sensitivity.

Of course not, how can one part of Germany speak for the whole? The Western version always formulated a so-called "Alleinvertretungsanspruch", meaning it would indeed represent all of Germany, but that was more a political tool to make CommieGermany look irrelevant.

Well, couldn't they in that case as well?
Anyway, I've recently had a lesson about international law. During a merger, not to mention annexion, border treaties are obliging for the hereditory state.

When a unified Germany finally came around, it just accepted that border without any problems.

Well, the way it was perceived here Germans weren't eager to finally accept it. The treaty was signed 1,5 month after the unification. It took Germany thrice as long time as Poland to ratify it.\

[Heresson]

Oh, and isn't it funny to see Serb telling what is the best for EU? Again, if a ueber-nationalistic Russian says it's, how can it be wrong?

[Serb]

I'm not saying what is the best for EU. I'm saying that Kaczynski twins sucks.

[Serb]

Originally posted by molly bloom


They're backed with the emigrant Polish Fifth Columnists.

The Plumbers', Bricklayers' and Electricians' Brigades, coming to a housing estate or renovation near YOU!

In Civ's terms that should be:

Polish military advisor:

Their best military unit is Leopard-2A4 panzer. Our best military unit is Plumber Brigade.

Polish science advisor:

Yeah! They are backward people comparing to us!!!

[Heresson]

Try, try to be funny. Perhaps someday You shall succeed. I don't think it's going to be anytime soon, though.

Wait, wrong, wrong: You are funny when You're trying to post some "serious" product of your mind.

[Serb]

Boo

[Heresson]

Did You have party today in the morning, Serb? You seem very active and happy...

[Serb]

I am always active and happy when I troll you

[BeBMan]

Well, the way it was perceived here Germans weren't eager to finally accept it. The treaty was signed 1,5 month after the unification. It took Germany thrice as long time as Poland to ratify it.\

Honestly, *not* to accept the border was at *no point* even considered here during that stage. It played absolutely no role in the public debate or for the political elite, except maybe for the whackier part of the right which otoh were completely marginalized and had no authority to decide anything over that during the unification process.

And 1.5 months is really no time for internat. treaties.....