Leftist youth groups conduct street battles with police in Copenhagen

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by laurentius
Fact: The Danes here do not represent the Danish people here. Just like Pekka doesnt represent Finns.

Quite right. Of course noone here represent the common opinion of where they come from. Beliving such would be stupid. On the other hand, most of us has a tendency to refer fact as precise as possible since there is a high risk of being debunked and exposed as an unreliable person. You migh not care about such, but I do.

According to that article the Danes regard people who believe in authorities as naive.

Well, I'll say that that article is pretty naive. Danish authorities is pretty reliable. Corruption is almost non existing, claims about conspiracies such as gov+regious sct is on da Vinci level. The press just loves to crucify politicians that do stupid things, and since we have good independent left and right wing papers, no government can feel secure.

[laurentius]

Okay I will try to translate:

Tanskalainen ei usko auktoriteetteihin

Julkaistu: 2.3.2007 23:16

Annukka Oksanen

kööpenhamina. Ungdomshusetin tyhjentämistä seuranneen reaktion rajuutta voi selittää monin tavoin.

Ensinnäkin tanskalaisilta puuttuu täysin tarve uskoa auktoriteetteihin.

Auktoriteettiusko ei ole Tanskassa hyve, vaan merkki naiiviudesta. Suomalaistyyppinen, uhkaileva poliittinen retoriikka naurettaisiin nurkkaan.

Toiseksi Tanskassa on vahvat mielenosoittamisen perinteet. Aktiivinen oman näkemyksen ilmaus marssimalla on normaalia valtavirtakäytöstä.

Ungdomshuset-mellakat ovat saaneet veteraanit muistelemaan vuotta 1993. "Ein" jälkeen Tanska oli vastannut "kyllä" Maastrichtin sopimukselle. Kapitalismin ja globalisaation vastustajat järjestivät mielenosoituksen, joka päättyi siihen, että poliisi ampui ensimmäisen kerran kohti siviilejä toisen maailmansodan jälkeen. Useat haavoittuivat. Väkivallallakin on siis valitettavasti perinteitä.

Kolmanneksi Tanskassa toimii keskieurooppalaiseen tapaan autonominen liike, uusliberalismia ja erityisesti uusnatseja vastustava ryhmä, joka hyväksyy väkivallan. Marxilaiset autonomit ovat kurinalaisesti toimiva, mustiin pukeutunut ryhmä, joka osallistuu ahkerasti mielenosoituksiin. Heille Ungdomshuset on voittopuolisesti kulttuuri- eikä poliittinen kysymys.

Yhtenä elementtinä loppuviikon mielenosoituksissa on mukana porvarihallituksen vastustaminen. Barrikadeille nousseiden mielestä hallitus ja sen oikeistopopulistinen tukipuolue Tanskan kansanpuolue haluavat kitkeä kaikenlaisen kyseenalaistamisen, siis erilaisuuden.

Tasapäistämisen räikein esimerkki on hallituksen arvostelijoiden mielestä vapaakaupunki Christianian miehittäminen poliiseilla.

Mielipidekyselyjen mukaan valtaosa tanskalaisista on halunnut säilyttää vapaakaupungin ja arvostaa christianialaisten vaihtoehtoista elämäntyyliä.

Rasistisen puolueen noususta, Muhammed-kriisistä ja viime aikojen väkivaltaisista mellakoista huolimatta ristiriitainen Tanska on kuin onkin vanhan maineensa mukainen suvaitsevainen ja liberaali yhteiskunta.

Siitä todistaa se, että Ungdomshuset-mellakoiden väkivaltaisuus tuomittiin laajasti, mutta julkisuudessa ei ole kuulunut itse Ungdomshusetia mollaavia kommentteja. Vaihtoehtoisuutta ja alakulttuureja vähättelevä sävy nuorten hömpötyksestä puuttuu yleisestä keskustelusta täysin. Vain mielenosoittamisen keinoista vallitsee erimielisyys.

"The Danes dont believe in authority.

Copenhagen. The wild reaction to the eviction of the Ungdomshuset can be explained in many ways.

First of all the Danish people totally lack the need to believe in authority.

Believing in authority is not a virtue in Denmark, but a sign of being naive. The Finnish-style threatening political rhetoric would be laughet at.

Secondly there are strong traditions in protesting in Denmark. The active expression of ones own opinion by marching is part of the normal behaviour.

Ungdomshuset-riots have got the old veterans remembering the year 1993. After a "No" Denmark had said "Yes" to the Maastricht Treaty. The anti-capitalism and globalisation activists organised the first demonstration which ended in the first time police shot towards the demonstrators since the WW2. A number were hurt. So unfortenately the violence has its traditions to.

Thirdly as is common in Central Europe there is an autonomical movement against neo liberalism, and neo nazis in Denmark that accepts violence. The Marxist autonomers are a discipline, black dressing group that is actively participating in demonstrations. To them the Ungdomshuset is mainly cultural, not political issue.

One element in the riots last weekend was to oppose the bourgeoise-government. Those who took to the barricades felt that the government and especially its right wing populistic Danish Nationalparty try to uproot every kind of questioning and scrutiny, in other words the diversity.

An example of such to the critics of the government is the police occupation of the Christiania freetown.

According to the polls the majority of Danes want to preserve Christiania and appreciate its alternative lifestyle.

Despite the rise of the racist party, muhammed-crises and the recent riots the disagreeing Denmark still lives up to its reputation as a tolerant and liberal society.

In testament to that although the violence of the riots was widely condemned there were no comments against the Ungdomshuset itself. The belitteling tone towards the alternative and sub cultures is completely absent from the public debate. The only disagreement is about the means of the protests."

as found here http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/artikkeli/.../1135225534152

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
How pray, tell, did the Birmingham bus boycott break the law? Is there an affirmative legal obligation to ride the bus?

Unlike the lunch counter sitins, etc, the bus boycott was NOT civil disobedience. Note Civil disobedience is non-violent protest, but not all non-violent protest is civil disobedience.

Historical ignorance, however, is historical ignorance.

Well I didn't say that it was illegal to boycott. They broke a different law.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Well I didn't say that it was illegal to boycott. They broke a different law.

well okkkaaaaayyyyy then.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber



KId kid kid

How many times do we have to say that the identity of the parties is irrelevant.

Yeah. I don't care how many times you ignore it.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by laurentius
Okay I will try to translate:
[/url]

OK

I see mentions of Danes liking alternative lifestyle and even bits about distrusting government generally but I don't see where it said that a majority of Danes support riots or rioters.

hell it even says the violence of the riots was widely condemned

[laurentius]

I dont see where I ever said majority supports the rioters. The majority supports the youth was what I said.

[Kidlicious]

Flubber,

Do you support affirmative action. One reason why I support affirmative action is because I don't ignore the fact that people don't hire as many minorities as they do whites no matter what the qualifications are of the applicants. Some people ignore this and do not support affirmative action.

This is kind of like that. You want to ignore the fact that these Christians do not want these people to exist. If you want to ignore it fine. Just stop telling me how many times you are ignoring it or whatever language you want to use.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Yeah. I don't care how many times you ignore it.

OK then-- Lets approach it another way.

If the identity of the parties matters to you ....

1. what would your position be if the leftys had bought a church which was historically significant to the church?

2. How would you feel if the purchaser was some labour or lefty organization. Lets assume a communicst historical society that wanted to displace the squatters and erect a museum or cultural centre or sometyhin g else entirely ( but a use incompatible with the continued occupation)

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by laurentius
Okay I will try to translate:



"The Danes dont believe in authority.

Copenhagen. The wild reaction to the eviction of the Ungdomshuset can be explained in many ways.

First of all the Danish people totally lack the need to believe in authority.

Believing in authority is not a virtue in Denmark, but a sign of being naive. The Finnish-style threatening political rhetoric would be laught at.

Well, that isn't exactly what you said, and I agree with the article. Any kind of bullying from authority side would be attacked and rediculed by most here. That though doesn't mean that there isn't trust in what authorities says.

Secondly there are strong traditions of demonstration in Denmark. The active expression of ones own opinion by marching is part of the normal behaviour.

Ungdomshuset-riots have got the old veterans remeber the year 1993. After a "No" Denmark had said "Yes" to the Maastricht Treaty. The anti-capitalism and globalisation activists organised the first demonstration which ended in the first time police shot towards the demonstrators since the WW2. A number were hurt. So unfortenately the violence has its traditions.

Yup, demos aren't uncommon. Though, the statement is a bit unprecise - when those shost was fired, the situation was far worse than what has been seen the last couple of days.

Thirdly as is common in Central Europe there is an autonomical movement against neo liberalism, and neo nazis in Denmark to that accepts violence. The Marxist autonomers are a discipline, black dressing group that is actively participating in demonstrations. To them the Ungdomshuset is mainly cultural, not political isssue.

One element in the riots last weekend was to oppose the bourgeoise-government. Those who took to the barricades felt that the government and especially its right wing populistic Danish Nationalparty try to uproot every kind of questioning and scrutiny, in other words the diversity.

Who really cares if these neomarxists thinks that violence is ok ? It's still both illegal and completely unacceptable.

An example of such to the critics of the government is the police occupation of the Christiania freetown.

I think that the journalist may have tested the weed products in cristiania a bit too much - it isn't occupied by police in any way. Though, it's right that occationally police visits the place to catch criminals. That is after all their job.

According to the polls the majority of Danes want to preserve Christiania and appreciate its alternative lifestyle.

I bet that I any day can order a poll that tells exactly what I want to hear

Despite the rise of the racist party, muhammed srises and the recent riots the disagreeing Denmark still lives up to its reputation as a tolerant and liberal society.

In testament to that although the violence of the riots was widely condemned there were no comments against the Ungdomshuset itself. The belitteling tone towards the alternative and sub cultures is ompletely absent from the public debate. The only disagreement is about the means of the protests."

as found here http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/artikkeli/.../1135225534152

Just on the spot - it's hard to find any that would say that ungdomshuset as an idea/institution is a bad idea - what pisses the overall majority of danes is the violence and destruction that the demonstrators has displayed.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Flubber,

Do you support affirmative action. One reason why I support affirmative action is because I don't ignore the fact that people don't hire as many minorities as they do whites no matter what the qualifications are of the applicants. Some people ignore this and do not support affirmative action.

This is kind of like that. You want to ignore the fact that these Christians do not want these people to exist. If you want to ignore it fine. Just stop telling me how many times you are ignoring it or whatever language you want to use.

very different actually. The purchase of any single building does not prevent people from buying/occupying another. ... and nothing herer denies the squatters the right to exist.

You always try to frame things as a fight for survival, even in contexts where it is clearly not the case

[Flubber]

Originally posted by BlackCat



Just on the spot - it's hard to find any that would say that ungdomshuset as an idea/institution is a bad idea - what pisses the overall majority of danes is the violence and destruction that the demonstrators has displayed.

This surprises me not at all. It is the attitude I expected .

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber


OK then-- Lets approach it another way.

If the identity of the parties matters to you ....

1. what would your position be if the leftys had bought a church which was historically significant to the church?

2. How would you feel if the purchaser was some labour or lefty organization. Lets assume a communicst historical society that wanted to displace the squatters and erect a museum or cultural centre or sometyhin g else entirely ( but a use incompatible with the continued occupation)

I would say that the identity of the parties matters.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


This is kind of like that. You want to ignore the fact that these Christians do not want these people to exist. If you want to ignore it fine. Just stop telling me how many times you are ignoring it or whatever language you want to use.

OH and do you have a source for this assertion? You keep saying that the Christians do not want these people to exist but have you anything specific on point or is it just a general view about what fundie Christiand would feel toward lefty punk rocker types

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I would say that the identity of the parties matters.

I accepted that you say they do . . . I am truly interested in your answers to the two questions that follow