Are all the Prophets of Judachrislam essentially faithless?

[lord of the mark]

http://www.amazon.com/Prophets-Abraham-Joshua-Heschel/dp/0061315575

[lord of the mark]

BTW, on the notion of a unique relationship of to G-d by prophets meaning they dont need faith.

According the Torah, the entire Jewish people at the time were present at Sinai and witnessed God's revelation. Nevertheless many of them lost faith.


According to Jewish tradition, i believe in the Midrash, not just those alive at the time, but ALL Jews born before or since, the descendants of those who were present, plus all sincere converts to Judaism and their descendants, were present at Sinai. Every one of us witnessed revelation. Of course we forget, and lose faith. But then what happens to a prophet between prophecies? Prophets are there to remind us, and they may need reminding as well.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

BTW, on the notion of a unique relationship of to G-d by prophets meaning they dont need faith.

According the Torah, the entire Jewish people at the time were present at Sinai and witnessed God's revelation. Nevertheless many of them lost faith.

Wouldn't that be the ULTIMATE act of sheer, unadulterated stupidity? I mean, you've SEEN the thing happen, still you doubt it? WTF sort of dumb, idiotic person are you? What in God's name happened to your good common sense?

Originally posted by lord of the mark

According to Jewish tradition, i believe in the Midrash, not just those alive at the time, but ALL Jews born before or since, the descendants of those who were present, plus all sincere converts to Judaism and their descendants, were present at Sinai. Every one of us witnessed revelation. Of course we forget, and lose faith. But then what happens to a prophet between prophecies? Prophets are there to remind us, and they may need reminding as well.

I don't really get this. If a Prophet has known God, what's there not to believe? Doesn't he have proof positive?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
http://www.amazon.com/Prophets-Abrah.../dp/0061315575

Thanks. I'm checking out the Excerpt right now.

[Ben Kenobi]

They're a majority in the North-East, and they still follow the old-school, persecute-the-infidel type of Christianity which destroyed the native religions of Europe and America. But as I said, let's not go there.

Start another thread on the Naga. There are interesting stories for anyone who is convinced that it's Christians who are the problem.

I'm surprised you would even mention the Naga. Not exactly the best argument.

Not miracles. All the Prophets had some or the other sensory experience which convinced them beyond all doubt about the existence of their God.

Same as a miracle.

If that is the case, then they have no need of faith in God - they know God exists, they have no need to believe without proof, because they are the proof. Thus, they are "faithless" by the modern definition of faith.

The devil can decieve using the same methods. Again, as LOTM has said the Jews had the tent of meeting by which they had direct evidence of God and still fell away from the faith. Miracles do not make one faithful.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by aneeshm


Wouldn't that be the ULTIMATE act of sheer, unadulterated stupidity? I mean, you've SEEN the thing happen, still you doubt it? WTF sort of dumb, idiotic person are you? What in God's name happened to your good common sense?



I don't really get this. If a Prophet has known God, what's there not to believe? Doesn't he have proof positive?

Time. You know something, then you dont know it. Your heart loses it. Your heart hardens. Ah, I was mistaken, it wasnt really true, I was just seeing things, it was an illusion, it was a defense mechanism, it was a crutch, it was childishness, it was propaganda, it was a magic trick, it was smoke and mirrors, it was a projection, it was what I WANTED to see, it was a product of my culture, it was my silly hopes, it was my fears. All the ways to avoid the radical intrusion of the eternal into the the temporal, to avoid the "scandal of revelation", to avoid G-d, and all that G-d might imply for how we live.


I take it you're a young man, Aneeshm?

[lord of the mark]

lets go back to Jonah.

Jonah not only knows of G-ds existence, but what G-d wants him to do. He also knows G-ds power, and so he knows that he cannot escape. Yet despite that he runs, he takes flight, he head to Tarshish, the opposite direction from Nineveh. Its the human urge to rebel, to ignore what we MUST do, to avoid. Its NOT rational, but who said man is rational when confronted with what is too big for him?

[lord of the mark]

Id like to post for you the poem by Jacob Glatstein (originally in Yiddish) called "Dead men don't praise God" (yes thats a quote from Psalms) in which he takes the image of all Jews of all times being present at Sinai, and extends it, saying that all Jews of all time were present at Lublin (where the Maidenek death camp was) and he says "we all received the Torah at Sinai, and at Lublin we gave it back". Its very powerful. Im afraid I cant find the text online though.

[trev]

The great prophets of the bible all required the greatest of faith. They were required to report dreams as the truth of God, quiet voices as the certain words of God, predict impossible and unlikely events and expect people to believe it was the word of God and would happen. To have the courage to say to Kings, just wait till morning and the enemy with an army 10 times your size will be defeated, it needs faith and courage to state the Word of God in those circumstances, to say to the King your people will be without a shepherd the next day (implying that the King will die in battle) takes a lot of faith and courage. Yes God sometimes gave these prophets special vision of his power and majesty, but it still requires great faith to rely on past visions and report impossible future events.

[Drake Tungsten]

The destruction of the peoples of the Americas by the Spanish, fuelled by religious zeal?

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but you're not that kind of Indian...

[Fake Boris]

Aneeshm, when I see the kind of theological questions you ask yourself, you're really due for reading a bit of Spinoza. I'm sure you'd like it.

[Jon Miller]

So Spinoza also doesn't understand western religion at all?

JM

[Fake Boris]

I think he understands it very well. That's why he was called an 'atheist'. (but actually wasn't)

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
So Spinoza also doesn't understand western religion at all?

JM

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
So Spinoza also doesn't understand western religion at all?

I think that he might know the secret origins of the Hindu civilization.