Are all the Prophets of Judachrislam essentially faithless?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Elok


Nope, no fascism here. How does one say "lebensraum" in Sanskrit?

How precisely does an aspiration of regaining a lost economic position by becoming the most productive nation in the world BY OUR OWN HARD WORK have ANYTHING to do with fascism?

[Elok]

Originally posted by aneeshm
How precisely does an aspiration of regaining a lost economic position by becoming the most productive nation in the world BY OUR OWN HARD WORK have ANYTHING to do with fascism?

It doesn't, especially, when you phrase it like that. But the bit I quoted was phrased pretty funny. Read some of Hitler's old speeches sometime: "The German people have been wronged, but we will take back what is ours! It is a long road ahead of us, but the German people will never stop until we have fulfilled our destiny as a strong and unified people! Blah blah blah!"

[DaShi]

Originally posted by aneeshm

Though he is, in part, correct - Indians believe their country is THE best.

I've met a few Indians who don't believe that their country is THE best. How should they die?

[Berzerker]

Isn't it unfair to everyone else that they have to rely on faith, whereas the Prophets have (personal) proof?

Isn't it ironic that the only people who don't actually need faith, that same faith which is praised to the skies by the message these same people bring, who are completely convinced of the existence and attributes of God because of personal experience, are the Prophets themselves? They are given the "rational" proof of God, thus negating the necessity of faith, but they expect everyone else to take everything they say on faith.

For most, faith is all we have at our disposal until God decides to call us personally. That aint the prophet's fault, the prophet knows that until we experience God as he has, it'll take faith. If I got a hole in one and you didn't see it, you can either disbelieve me or have faith that I speak the truth. But you are right to a degree, those with the facts dont need faith, they just need patience with those who lack facts and need faith.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by DaShi


I've met a few Indians who don't believe that their country is THE best. How should they die?

The spirit of the nation is, in them, already dead. Their body is but a container which contains nothing, an empty shell.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by aneeshm


He accompanied an invading army. I don't think that makes for an exactly unbiased source.

He was a prisoner of Mahmud of Ghazni.

He was also a Muslim, so of course that rules him out as a writer on society in the sub-continent in mediaeval times.

Using this logic, can we hope you'll refrain from ever commenting on any issues regarding Islam and Muslims ?

Though he is, in part, correct - Indians believe their country is THE best. Once upon a time, at the time of Biruni, it was true.

There wasn't a single India then, but competing warring states. Easy to be anachronistic, isn't it ?

I don't know how good these figures are

Colour me shocked and stunned.

India is going to reclaim her lost economic position.

Are they using anything that originated in the Muslim world or Europe ?

Reject them now as unIndian!!!!

reclaiming the power which is their birthright.

Here endeth the BJP Party Political Broadcast. Well, one can hope....

I keep forgetting you like the rhetorical trick of posting something nasty, and then claiming sarcasm when youre called on it.

Don't blame your incomprehension on me.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by molly bloom


He was a prisoner of Mahmud of Ghazni.

He was also a Muslim, so of course that rules him out as a writer on society in the sub-continent in mediaeval times.

Being a prisoner of a psychotic murdered whom you have to praise DOES NOT make for an unbiased observer.

Originally posted by molly bloom

Using this logic, can we hope you'll refrain from ever commenting on any issues regarding Islam and Muslims ?

You fail to appreciate the difference between "FACT" and "OPINION".

Originally posted by molly bloom

There wasn't a single India then, but competing warring states. Easy to be anachronistic, isn't it ?

India is not a political entity, it is a culture and a civilisation.

Originally posted by molly bloom

Are they using anything that originated in the Muslim world or Europe ?

Reject them now as unIndian!!!!

That's just stupid. Again, there is a difference between adopting ideas the innovations in the realm of science, which is completely unconnected with culture, and with adopting the civilisation and ideas of another. A difference which you fail to understand.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by aneeshm


The spirit of the nation is, in them, already dead. Their body is but a container which contains nothing, an empty shell.

So, vivisection?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by DaShi


So, vivisection?

It appears you missed the "".

[DaShi]

It's hard to tell from your posts.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Though he is, in part, correct - Indians believe their country is THE best. Once upon a time, at the time of Biruni, it was true. In fact, until approximately 1750, the Indian agricultural labourer and industrial worker was better off than his counterpart in industrial Britain. I don't know how good these figures are, but it is said that during the years of British rule, India's economy shrunk from 23% of the world's total to 2% at the time of independence, and Britain's grew to 18%.

World economic figures are somewhat difficult to assess. I don't think the economy of the Indian subcontinent shrunk, rather the West outpaced it. Nobody matched European/American growth in that period. Japan only came close in the second half after the Brits and Yanks kicked the proverbial door down and dragged them along.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom
Don't blame your incomprehension on me.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by aneeshm

Being a prisoner of a psychotic murdered whom you have to praise DOES NOT make for an unbiased observer.

Mahmud of Ghazni was a psychotic murderer ?

I had no idea you were a psychiatrist as well as a completely unbiased historian of Islamic history.

It appears clear that, despite his many works on astrology, al-Biruni did not believe in the 'science' but used it as a means to support his serious scientific work. A devout Muslim, he did write religious texts to suit his patron's particular sect.

He shows no prejudice against different religious sects or races, but he does have strong words to say about various acts they committed.

For example the Arab conquerors of Khwarzm destroyed ancient texts - what sin could be worse than that to the scholar as dedicated to learning and history as was al-Biruni. On the Christian faith al-Biruni considered the doctrine of forgiveness, writing in his work on India :-

" Upon my life, this is a noble philosophy, but the people of this world are not all philosophers. ... And indeed, ever since Constantine the Victorious became a Christian, both sword and whip have been ever employed."

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Mathematicians/Al-Biruni.html

You fail to appreciate the difference between "FACT" and "OPINION".

Not at all- we have been the eager recipients of many of your opinions, but there seems to have been a veritable drought of facts.

India is not a political entity, it is a culture and a civilisation.

Really ? And there I was thinking that there were Hindu Indians, Christian Indians, Jain Indians, Sikh Indians, Buddhist Indians, Jewish Indians- and animist Indians, tribal Indians, Parsee Indians, atheist and Marxist Indians- surely they aren't all the same 'culture' and 'civilization' ?

A difference which you fail to understand.

Oh dear me- not only a psychiatrist, but a long distance mind reader too!
Tee hee.

An indication of the sarcasm that he employed against those he saw to be foolish we give the reply that he made to a religious man who objected to the fact that an instrument which al-Biruni was showing him to determine the time for prayers had Byzantine months engraved on it. Al-Biruni reports in 'Shadows' that he said to him:-

The Byzantines also eat food. Then do not imitate them in this!

I don't know where this idea comes from. Not a single prominent person associated with what is today called "Hindu nationalism" has EVER said that fascism was a good thing.

They don't have to, to imitate or emulate the methods of Fascism.

Don't like parliamentary democracy ? Fine, they organise cadres and work outside it.

Don't like minorities ? Fine, then stigmatize Christians and Muslims and Sikhs.

Not happy with today's society ? Then reconstruct history (preferably without any scholarship, footnotes or research) and make the distant past a golden age, when the country was a veritable paradise before all those nasty Muslims and Christians came and ruined everything.

Construct a Hindu warrior 'patriot' who defeated the wicked Muslims, without any Muslim help of course- Shivaiji.

Then punish anyone or anything that disagrees with you:

June 2003: Oxford University Press, India, releases Laine’s Shivaji: Hindu King in Islamic India.

Nov 10: Historians Jaysinhrao Pawar, Babasaheb Purandare, Ninad Bedekar, B G Mehendale and others seek withdrawal of book.

Nov 21: OUP’s New Delhi office apologises, withdraws book from market.

Dec 22: A group of Shiv Sena workers seeks explanation from scholars attached to the Bhandarkar institute. Sena men manhandle Dr Shrikant Bahulkar, a historian whose name figured among the acknowledgements in the book.

Dec 25: Historian Mehendale destroys 1,000 printed pages of his Shivaji biography in protest against the attack on Bahulkar.

Dec 28: Raj Thackeray apologises to Bahulkar. So does Laine, in a fax message from US

Jan 5: The Sambhaji Brigade, a wing of Maratha Seva Sangh, ransack the Bhandarkar Institute. Thousands of rare manuscripts and books destroyed. Over 70 people arrested.

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=72489

Sanika Bapat, another post-graduate scholar merely questioned,

‘‘Why did they tear a Shivaji manuscript from this library? Are they Shivaji worshippers or patriots? They are worse than any militia. We are another Taliban
now.’’

Brave activists:

The activists — armed with batons, bamboo sticks and nanchakus — first hit peon Prasad Konde on his head and forced their way into the research and study halls which house ancient and valuable books, manuscripts, pictures, copper and clay tablets.

The vandals ransacked cupboards, broke the computer, smashed window panes and mutilated oil paintings of stalwart Indologists like Ramkrishna Bhandarkar, P.V.Kane,Kashinathshastri Abhyankar, P.V. Bapat and P.L. Vaidya, who spent their lives bringing Bori to its preeminent stature.

The floor was littered with broken glass, fans and telephones, torn pages of books and manuscripts dating back to the 16th century.

A translation of the Rigved by Sanacharya was later found on the ILS Law College road, outside the institute. Not even saplings outside the building were spared.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/407226.cms

Don't like history ? Then rewrite it, or destroy it.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Construct a Hindu warrior 'patriot' who defeated the wicked Muslims, without any Muslim help of course- Shivaiji.

The fact remains that he did defeat the "wicked Muslims", but everyone knows that he employed many Muslims. He was also respectful towards their religion - he had given standing orders that any Qurans which fall into his army's hands are to be given over to the Maulvi in the next village they pass through.

Originally posted by molly bloom

Then punish anyone or anything that disagrees with you:

This is what I call complete and total self-pwnage.

The group that did that was a fundamentalist atheist, anti-Hindu, and anti-Brahminical one called the "Sambhaji Brigade". These guys oppose the RSS and VHP, and hate Brahmins.

But you, in your infinite wisdom, try to use that as a stick to attempt to beat Hindu organisations with. Well, the stick's on your head this time, pal.

Quoting the wiki:

Sambhaji Brigade is an Anti-Brahminist all-caste militant Maratha youth organization situated in Maharashtra, a western state of India. Among the organization's missions is to revive the glory of the Maratha Empire, which at its peak, extended from present-day Afghanistan to Myanmar

The outfit distances itself from the Hindutva organisations and considers itself as the ideological descendant of the secular Maratha Empire. The outfit's members consists of mostly Maratha youths from the rural interiors of Maharashtra. Vast majority of Maratha population does not support MSS. There are many Marathi-speaking Muslim youths in the outfit as well. The organisation's ideology is directed against the Brahmins of Marathi society. The parent organisation MSS's founder Khedekar is alleged to have close ties with many Nationalist Congress Party (NCP) leaders, although the NCP denies it. Although politically inactive, the organization is a social forum for Maratha revival and Maratha ethnocentrism.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by aneeshm




This is what I call complete and total self-pwnage.

Really ?

The group that did that was a fundamentalist atheist, anti-Hindu, and anti-Brahminical one called the "Sambhaji Brigade". These guys oppose the RSS and VHP, and hate Brahmins.

They're atheist ?

Not according to them:

The reigning deity of Shiv Dharma will be Jijabai.

In your opinion:

anti-Hindu

According to them:

"Hinduism has become a slave to Brahmanism. Why do we have so much atrocities against women in our society? It is because of the influence of Vedic and Brahmanic concept of religion. In Shiv Dharma we want to treat all as equals. From birth to death we have been tied down to some or other Brahmanic ritual. Hence there is a strong need for a new religion for the 'Bahujan' community."

They also think:

... their embracing Shiv Dharma cannot be termed as conversion. "Hinduism is not a religion, it is a way of life," he said. "So it will be wrong to say that we will be converting. We just want to form our religion."

I do recall someone else saying that Hinduism wasn't simply a 'religion' but a 'way of life'....

Well, the stick's on your head this time, pal.

Really ? I don't recall saying that the B.J.P., R.S.S. or V.H.P. wrecked the Bhandarkar Institute.

The mosque at Ayodhya is a different matter of course.

BJP president and home minister L. K. Advani and Uttar Pradesh chief minister Kalyan Singh were among the forty people accused by the Central Bureau of Investigation of the destruction of the mosque. Also on the list were Murli Manohar Joshi, the former chief minister of Maharashtra, and Bal Thackeray, the leader of the Shiv Sena. The CBI charged all of the accused with "criminal conspiracy, intentional destruction and defiling of a place of worship, criminal trespass and intimidation of public servants on duty."175 Advani and Joshi were present in Ayodhya when Hindu militants tore down the mosque.

http://hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-05.htm

Now as I said:

Don't like parliamentary democracy ? Fine, they organise cadres and work outside it.

The Bajrang Dal is the militant youth wing of the VHP. It was formed in 1984 during the Babri Masjid conflict, in order to mobilize youth for the Ayodhya campaign.

Religious groups:

VHP fliers:

"India is a country of Hindus.... Our religion of Rama and Krishna is pious. To convert [or] leave it is a sin."

"Caution Hindus! Beware of inhuman deeds of Muslims....

The golden past:

Not happy with today's society ? Then reconstruct history

As Romila Thapar says:

The Sangh's indigenism... attempts to invent a tradition and retain it as something essentially different from other cultures and societies, and to build an ideology on such a tradition. But it fails to provide a theory of historical explanation or a method of historical analysis.

Shivaiji as Hindu 'patriot':

AMONG THE GREAT HINDU warriors of this millennium, few rival Shivaji, the 17th-century leader who battled invading Mughal armies … So it's no surprise to find a fresco of Shivaji gracing the entrance to the Dandkarniya Vanavasi School in Waghai, a remote town in the western state of Gujarat. Set in a quiet forest, the private institution appears to be an ideal place to study - except that its 28 pupils don't seem to be getting a very fair education. Many of the boys are too young to realize it, but…[a] short Hindi poem inscribed under Shivaji's portrait affords a glimpse of what the students learn. "If it weren't for Shivaji," the ballad goes, "we would all be circumcised." The message: Shivaji saved Hindus from being forcibly converted to Islam….Most of the students at Dandkarniya, for instance, used to be first-generation Christians.

http://www.proxsa.org/newsflash/appendixf.html

Or as you put it:

but everyone knows that he employed many Muslims.