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Are all the Prophets of Judachrislam essentially faithless?

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  • Are all the Prophets of Judachrislam essentially faithless?

    This was a question that occurred to me when discussing theology on (some person doing a PhD. in Philosophy, who had taken Theology as a major subject before (IIRC), had opened a "Ask a Theologian" thread).

    Anyway, here's the question I posted there:


    Here's a chain of questions which my knowledge of Hindu philosophy suggested to me (in what way it was suggested would take too long to explain, so I'd skip that right now, unless you want to know more):

    What is the exceptional thing in a Prophet (I refer to the Prophetic tradition of the Jews, the Old Testament, and of its culmination in Jesus)?

    Is the nature of his consciousness "different" from others? Is he "created" different, somehow something more than just human?

    If not (that is, if there is no difference between a Prophet and an ordinary man except that the Prophet is "chosen"), then why is a particular soul chosen for Prophethood? Is it (the choosing) random?

    If it is random, isn't that just plain unfair (that some souls get a "Hotline to Heaven", whereas others have to be content with receiving orders from the guy with the phone)? Isn't it unfair to everyone else that they have to rely on faith, whereas the Prophets have (personal) proof?

    Isn't it ironic that the only people who don't actually need faith, that same faith which is praised to the skies by the message these same people bring, who are completely convinced of the existence and attributes of God because of personal experience, are the Prophets themselves? They are given the "rational" proof of God, thus negating the necessity of faith, but they expect everyone else to take everything they say on faith.

    Would God choose the faithless as his Messengers? Would God create a system in which his Messengers have to be without faith due to the nature of the Prophetic tradition itself?
    Another bit which suggests itself now: would Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah create a system where only his "chosen" people would have the privilege of proof (and thus be without need of faith), and all others would have to be content with faith not just in God but also in his messengers, without the "special" knowledge that those messengers are privy to? Is that not unfair to every other created soul?

  • #2
    Another question: if we are made in the image of God, is out consciousness also made in God's image? Because that is the essence of his power, and if our consciousness is also the same as his, then we also have the power to create souls.

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    • #3
      0.1/10
      <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
      I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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      • #4
        Actually, it's not a troll, it's a serious question. I deliberately chose a provocative title so that people would be more inclined to read through the rather long and involved argument which I presented.

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        • #5
          The nature of prophecy and what it entails and the nature of the prophet, etc is one of the largest topics in Jewish theology, IIUC. Im not really an expert in this field - I think Abraham Joshua Heschel has written some stuff available in Englisha and oriented towards modern folks you might find interesting. The relationship of prophecy and the chosenness of Israel also goes way back, Halevi wrote about it in "Al Kuzari" in the 13th c.

          Dont take any Christian/Muslim statement on this as speaking for Judaism.
          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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          • #6
            aneeshm doesn't troll.
            THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
            AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
            AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
            DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF

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            • #7
              I stick by my rating and post.
              <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
              I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by aneeshm
                Another question: if we are made in the image of God, is out consciousness also made in God's image? Because that is the essence of his power, and if our consciousness is also the same as his, then we also have the power to create souls.

                Some would say so, and thats the basis for the Kabbalistic tradition of the Golem. OTOH theres some discussion of what the "essence of his power" is in the Kabbalistic lit as well. The rationalist tradition, following Rambam, OTOH denies that such details about G-d are knowable by man, and discourages such speculation.
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by lord of the mark
                  The nature of prophecy and what it entails and the nature of the prophet, etc is one of the largest topics in Jewish theology, IIUC. Im not really an expert in this field - I think Abraham Joshua Heschel has written some stuff available in Englisha and oriented towards modern folks you might find interesting. The relationship of prophecy and the chosenness of Israel also goes way back, Halevi wrote about it in "Al Kuzari" in the 13th c.

                  Dont take any Christian/Muslim statement on this as speaking for Judaism.
                  I know that Judaism is the most "intellectual" of these three religions (it's also the only one I can trust not to go "looney" on me every few hundred years, as the other two have done so throughout history), so I'm sure there must be some "solution" to this problem, I just wanted to know what it was.

                  It is also possible that all three religions have separate answers to this question, and I genuinely don't know the answer, so I'm asking.

                  But as you said, I won't take the statements of Christians of Muslims as speaking for Judaism.

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                  • #10
                    God pretty much always works through people. Prophets aren't perfect, there are lots of evidences of any the best of them making major mistakes. I think most (all?) Prophets respond to God in some way... and were followers of God to begin with.

                    Also, in OT times people weren't atheists. It wasn't reasonable. So the question wasn't is there a god.. it was what god should I obey, and how should I do it.

                    Additionally, God doesn't promise to give everyone equal chances. This comes again and again in both the OT and the NT. I mean, consider the parable of the talents. People aren't given equal chances, but everyone is given a chance.

                    To paraphrase the concept: If you are given 100$ and Lordshiva is given 10000$ should you complain? Or should you be glad that you were given 100$? (which you don't deserve). I think that there is even a parable of Christs: "a farmer needed workers for the harvest.. he went out in the morning to ask for workers and offered them a days wage. They took it and worked, at noon he decided he needed more workers to get the harvest done, so went back and hired more, offereing them a days wage. Finally, in the evening there was still more that needed doing, so he went and hired more workers, offering them a days wage. At the end of the day, he gave everyone the same wage, despite some working a lot more for it and some a lot less. Similiarly it is with God."

                    The Jews definitely are a Chosen people.

                    Jon Miller
                    Jon Miller-
                    I AM.CANADIAN
                    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                    • #11
                      All gifts are essentially 'unfair'. Some get healing some get other gifts.

                      Some get prophecy. To the person who has the gift it is one of two things. It can be a blessing, in that they have a gift that others do not. But how many of you would like to know the future if there were nothing you could do to prevent it?
                      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by snoopy369
                        I stick by my rating and post.
                        I don't deny your right to stick by it, the same way that I don't deny the possibility (nay, overwhelming probability) of you being totally and utterly wrong in what you have posted.

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                        • #13
                          I know that Judaism is the most "intellectual" of these three religions (it's also the only one I can trust not to go "looney" on me every few hundred years,
                          Well I'm not sure why Christianity is so different. When's the last time they went 'loony' as you so put it?
                          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                          • #14
                            BTW, there is a pretty common idea in Christianity (NT based, and reasonable I think) that the Jews were suppose to spread God's worship to the surrounding nations. To be an example.

                            This is one of the failings of Hezikiah (SP?), who was otherwise a good king.

                            I personally think that through all the time of persecution, a certain amount of insularism arose. And it is this that gives the current Jewish practice to discourage converts.

                            JM
                            Jon Miller-
                            I AM.CANADIAN
                            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


                              Well I'm not sure why Christianity is so different. When's the last time they went 'loony' as you so put it?
                              The destruction of the peoples of the Americas by the Spanish, fuelled by religious zeal?

                              Though Christianity has pretty much reformed itself after the Enlightenment, thank God. But the most recent examples I can think of is the behaviour of Christian missionaries in India, specially in the period of British rule, which, to some extent, continues today.

                              But that is deviating from the topic (though I pretty much invited that, so I can't really complain).

                              The question you have not answered is: do you agree that the Prophets had no need for faith, because to them, empirical proof of God and his plan and everything else was sensorily available, and that thus, by the modern definition, they were faithless (that is, they did not need to believe without faith).

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