The other thing to add in here, in an effort to be the Centre of the Universe, Toronto forgo world standards in track gauges and opted for a unique track gauge. Making adding new streetcars extremely expensive, as they all need to be heavily customized specifically for Toronto's unique tracks.
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Originally posted by Zkribbler
Elevated monorails cost 1/10 as much as subways and can be built 10 times faster. Let's face it: It's easier to tunnel through air than ground.
Monorails, unlike street cars and other light rail systems don't screw up traffic because they travel above it. Conversely, traffic doesn't hold up monorails because...yeah...monorails travel above it.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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Stations are expensive because they're elevated (but nowhere near as expensive as subway stations).
There's concerns about elevated switching tracks (which IMHO has just not been thought through).
Historically, they've been loud, with metal wheels on metal tracks. But newer models use rubber wheels on concrete tracks.
--Why not use monorails??
(And don't quote to me the price of the Las Vegas mororail. That was built in the most expensive manner possible. )
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It's interesting to note that a new monorail spur to LV's airport is expected to cost $125 million per mile (stations inclusive). That's not much less than the $190 million per mile (stations inclusive) for the above-ground Silver Line for Washington Metrorail to Dulles Airport. And Metrorail is a much more robust system.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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Jesus, Tingkai, this is like arguing with Paitkis when he was still around - at a certain point you start to feel like you're picking on a retarded child and start to get ashamed.
I noticed you didn't mention anything about what you actually know about urban planning. That's fine, I have a pretty good idea - you're left wing and love Toronto, therefore you've heard of and worship Jane Jacobs. Next, you trot out information about Toronto being considered a livable city as if that somehow was equivalent to having good planning, which if you actually knew anything about the subject, you would know is totally incorrect. Do you want to go through the litany of examples of terrible urban planning in Toronto, from the Gardiner Expressway to the truncated Spadina Expressway (and it's accompanying metro expressway plan) to Queens Quay to the vacant port lands to the Sheppard subway line to the Golden Mile to City Place to the too-numerous-to-mention concrete slab apartment blocks to the razing of much of Cabbagetown to St. Jamestown to the upcoming development of Queen West? Are you familiar with the Ontario Municiple Board and how they operate?"The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
"you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
"I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident
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Originally posted by DanS
It's interesting to note that a new monorail spur to LV's airport is expected to cost $125 million per mile (stations inclusive).
The biggest variable in the cost of monorail systems is the stations. Las Vegas build lot of luxurious stations close together. So they got whapped.
Most monorail systems cost $25-50 million/mile. There's one in England that cost $6 million/mile.
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Originally posted by Zkribbler
What part of "don't quote to me the price of the Las Vegas mororail" didn't you understand?!?
Compare to Washington Metrorail subway (underground), which goes for $1.35 per trip.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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Asher: If you don't like Toronto then leave. Seriously. No job is worth it if you have to live in a city you hate. You're not stupid. You should be able to get a job you like in a city you can enjoy. Either that, or try to have an open mind and go explore your new city.
As for your crazy theory, it falls to pieces because of a simple fact: streetcars have a much larger capacity than buses. That makes streetcars more efficient on high density routes.
Originally posted by Asher
It's got 2 frickin subway lines, unreliable and air-condition-less streetcars, and stops running before the bars close (1:30am). Best transit systems?
The streetcars are being upgraded to put back A/C.
There are 24-hour buses/streetcars on major routes.
The average wait for a bus/streetcar/subway is usually less than five minutes on major routes, compared to 20 minutes in cities like Calgary.
Originally posted by Asher
Busses can operate in dedicated lanes, busses can easily match or exceed the capacity of the Toronto streetcars,
So no, buses do not exceed the capacity of streetcars.
Or look at this link that shows the difference in capacity. It looks at the number of cars that a TTC vehicle replaces:
Bus: 45
CLRV (short streetcar): 60
ALRV (extended streetcar: 90
So the streetcars have between 30 to 100% more capacity.
Here's more proof:
Wiki says the extended street cars can hold 155 people, regular street cars hold 130 max.
Meanwhile extended diesel buses carry a max of 121 people
The Regular diesel buses carry between 50 to 90
So repeat after me: street cars have much larger capacity than buses.
Or do we need to change the topic title to: Why can't calgarians count.
Originally posted by Asher
and busses can run on electricity as well. This matches the "benefits" of the streetcar with the added bonus of not being blocked by obstructions, which happens more often than you think (as someone who takes it daily).
As for trolleys, again, they don't match the capacity of streetcars, although trolleys are better in downtown areas compared to buses and are effective for medium density routes that can justify having a streetcar.
Originally posted by Asher
BS. The Toronto screetcars are the size of busses.
TTC buses like the Orions are 40 feet in length or less. The CLRC's are 50 feet long. The ALRVs are 75 feet long.
Originally posted by Asher
Who cares if there are obstacles? It's not like it happens every day when the empty streetcars queue up while the full ones get even more full.
Originally posted by Asher
Who cares if people get hurt by the tracks?
Originally posted by Asher
- Electric busses are not economically feasible!
The simple fact is that streetcars can move a lot more people per vehicle, using less energy and at a faster pace than buses and trolleys.
Asher, you've been totally pwnd.Golfing since 67
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Originally posted by Tingkai
How long have you live in Toronto? There are three subway lines, four if you count the Scarborough RT.
The streetcars are being upgraded to put back A/C.
There are 24-hour buses/streetcars on major routes.
The average wait for a bus/streetcar/subway is usually less than five minutes on major routes, compared to 20 minutes in cities like Calgary.
Wrong. Look at the link you posted. For charter tours, buses can have 65, street cars can have up to 100, and that's not full capacity.
So no, buses do not exceed the capacity of streetcars.
You're comparing regular busses to regular streetcars AND extended streetcars.
Toronto doesn't have extended busses, but that doesn't mean they don't exist...
You live in a real city now. Yes, there are traffic jams. It affects buses, trolleys and street cars. Traffic accidents routinely disrupt transit service, even routes on dedicated bus lines.
Wrong again.
TTC buses like the Orions are 40 feet in length or less. The CLRC's are 50 feet long. The ALRVs are 75 feet long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_Bus_Industries
Asher, you've been totally pwnd."The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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Asher: All your arguments have been proven wrong.
Let's recap your mistakes
Buses are the same size as streetcars: wrong
Buses carry more people than streetcars: wrong
Toronto has two subway lines: wrong
Bloor Street doesn't have an all-night bus: wrong (Route 300)
Steetcar tracks are dangerous: wrong
Steetcars don't have air con: wrong
People in wheelchairs can't use streetcars: wrong
Toronto doesn't have extended buses: wrong
Streetcars can only carry 65 people: wrong
Almost every city is getting rid of streetcars: wrong
We need to change the thread title to: Asher is stupid.Golfing since 67
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Originally posted by Tingkai
How long have you live in Toronto? There are three subway lines, four if you count the Scarborough RT.Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard Dawkins
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Originally posted by Tingkai
Asher: All your arguments have been proven wrong.
Let's recap your mistakes
Buses are the same size as streetcars: wrong
Buses carry more people than streetcars: wrong
Toronto has two subway lines: wrong
Bloor Street doesn't have an all-night bus: wrong (Route 300)
Steetcar tracks are dangerous: wrong
Steetcars don't have air con: wrong
People in wheelchairs can't use streetcars: wrong
Toronto doesn't have extended buses: wrong
Streetcars can only carry 65 people: wrong
Almost every city is getting rid of streetcars: wrong
We need to change the thread title to: Asher is stupid."The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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