Toronto is ridiculously stupid

[Asher]

The other thing to add in here, in an effort to be the Centre of the Universe, Toronto forgo world standards in track gauges and opted for a unique track gauge. Making adding new streetcars extremely expensive, as they all need to be heavily customized specifically for Toronto's unique tracks.

[Kuciwalker]

Seconded.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Elevated monorails cost 1/10 as much as subways and can be built 10 times faster. Let's face it: It's easier to tunnel through air than ground.

Monorails, unlike street cars and other light rail systems don't screw up traffic because they travel above it. Conversely, traffic doesn't hold up monorails because...yeah...monorails travel above it.

You should ask yourself why monorails aren't used seriously anyplace.

[Zkribbler]

Stations are expensive because they're elevated (but nowhere near as expensive as subway stations).

There's concerns about elevated switching tracks (which IMHO has just not been thought through).

Historically, they've been loud, with metal wheels on metal tracks. But newer models use rubber wheels on concrete tracks.

--Why not use monorails??

(And don't quote to me the price of the Las Vegas mororail. That was built in the most expensive manner possible. )

[DanS]

It's interesting to note that a new monorail spur to LV's airport is expected to cost $125 million per mile (stations inclusive). That's not much less than the $190 million per mile (stations inclusive) for the above-ground Silver Line for Washington Metrorail to Dulles Airport. And Metrorail is a much more robust system.

[Kontiki]

Jesus, Tingkai, this is like arguing with Paitkis when he was still around - at a certain point you start to feel like you're picking on a retarded child and start to get ashamed.

I noticed you didn't mention anything about what you actually know about urban planning. That's fine, I have a pretty good idea - you're left wing and love Toronto, therefore you've heard of and worship Jane Jacobs. Next, you trot out information about Toronto being considered a livable city as if that somehow was equivalent to having good planning, which if you actually knew anything about the subject, you would know is totally incorrect. Do you want to go through the litany of examples of terrible urban planning in Toronto, from the Gardiner Expressway to the truncated Spadina Expressway (and it's accompanying metro expressway plan) to Queens Quay to the vacant port lands to the Sheppard subway line to the Golden Mile to City Place to the too-numerous-to-mention concrete slab apartment blocks to the razing of much of Cabbagetown to St. Jamestown to the upcoming development of Queen West? Are you familiar with the Ontario Municiple Board and how they operate?

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by DanS
It's interesting to note that a new monorail spur to LV's airport is expected to cost $125 million per mile (stations inclusive).

What part of "don't quote to me the price of the Las Vegas mororail" didn't you understand?!?

The biggest variable in the cost of monorail systems is the stations. Las Vegas build lot of luxurious stations close together. So they got whapped.

Most monorail systems cost $25-50 million/mile. There's one in England that cost $6 million/mile.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
What part of "don't quote to me the price of the Las Vegas mororail" didn't you understand?!?

Did I tell you about the last time I visited LV? I thought I would try to take the monorail at Bally's, but it took about 20 minutes to walk to the station from the strip, and they wanted $5 for a trip.

Compare to Washington Metrorail subway (underground), which goes for $1.35 per trip.

[Tingkai]

Asher: If you don't like Toronto then leave. Seriously. No job is worth it if you have to live in a city you hate. You're not stupid. You should be able to get a job you like in a city you can enjoy. Either that, or try to have an open mind and go explore your new city.

As for your crazy theory, it falls to pieces because of a simple fact: streetcars have a much larger capacity than buses. That makes streetcars more efficient on high density routes.

Originally posted by Asher
It's got 2 frickin subway lines, unreliable and air-condition-less streetcars, and stops running before the bars close (1:30am). Best transit systems?

How long have you live in Toronto? There are three subway lines, four if you count the Scarborough RT. And dedicated street car lines are being created because its cheaper than subway lines.

The streetcars are being upgraded to put back A/C.

There are 24-hour buses/streetcars on major routes.

The average wait for a bus/streetcar/subway is usually less than five minutes on major routes, compared to 20 minutes in cities like Calgary.

Originally posted by Asher
Busses can operate in dedicated lanes, busses can easily match or exceed the capacity of the Toronto streetcars,

Wrong. Look at the link you posted. For charter tours, buses can have 65, street cars can have up to 100, and that's not full capacity.

So no, buses do not exceed the capacity of streetcars.

Or look at this link that shows the difference in capacity. It looks at the number of cars that a TTC vehicle replaces:
Bus: 45
CLRV (short streetcar): 60
ALRV (extended streetcar: 90

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/operatingstatistics2005.pdf

So the streetcars have between 30 to 100% more capacity.

Here's more proof:
Wiki says the extended street cars can hold 155 people, regular street cars hold 130 max.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulated_Light_Rail_Vehicle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulated_Light_Rail_Vehicle

Meanwhile extended diesel buses carry a max of 121 people
The Regular diesel buses carry between 50 to 90

http://www.newflyer.com/index/diesel_d30_35_40_60l

So repeat after me: street cars have much larger capacity than buses.

Or do we need to change the topic title to: Why can't calgarians count.

Originally posted by Asher
and busses can run on electricity as well. This matches the "benefits" of the streetcar with the added bonus of not being blocked by obstructions, which happens more often than you think (as someone who takes it daily).

You live in a real city now. Yes, there are traffic jams. It affects buses, trolleys and street cars. Traffic accidents routinely disrupt transit service, even routes on dedicated bus lines.

As for trolleys, again, they don't match the capacity of streetcars, although trolleys are better in downtown areas compared to buses and are effective for medium density routes that can justify having a streetcar.

Originally posted by Asher
BS. The Toronto screetcars are the size of busses.

Wrong again.

TTC buses like the Orions are 40 feet in length or less. The CLRC's are 50 feet long. The ALRVs are 75 feet long.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_Bus_Industries

Originally posted by Asher
Who cares if there are obstacles? It's not like it happens every day when the empty streetcars queue up while the full ones get even more full.

Buddy, all forms of transit face obstacles. Yes, buses, streetcars and subways get packed during rush hour. And yes, sometimes if you avoid the packed bus, the one right behind it will be empty. That's just how it works in a city that has a busy transit system.

Originally posted by Asher
Who cares if people get hurt by the tracks?

Come on. You know as well as I do that you have as much chance of getting hurt from the street car track as you would from street curb. It's a lame ass argument. I'm surprised you keep using it.

Originally posted by Asher