The worst Inquitision.....

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Arrian

Um, of course not. Did you think I was saying that?

No.

Originally posted by Arrian

I was saying it's believeable. Not that it was morally right! Goodness, no.

-Arrian

Actually, IIRC, it's been standard policy to target the priests and intellectuals first, at least by non-Indian invading kings (Indian or Hindu kings derived their authority from Brahminical interpretation, so Brahmins were the last people they would hurt). It's not just believable, it's quite well-documented fact. Many accounts of invasions have the first step of consolidation as the demolition of the local temple and the slaughter of the priests and cows on the spot to defile it.

[Arrian]

It's standard operating procedure throughout the history of conquest, really. Hence my example of the Romans in Britain.

That means that, even if I find your sources for the OP dubious, I am willing to buy into the idea that the priestly caste took a beating. That's all I was trying to say when I was talking about how logical and believeable it was. Get it?

-Arrian

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Arrian

Ok, pat yourself on the back for the deeds of others.

It was written in a semi-humorous fashion. Maybe I should have included a wink smiley. But a large part of the culture of India, specially intellectual culture, has its origins in the Brahminical tradition of learning.

Originally posted by Arrian

By the way, how can you claim to have co-opted the the institutions of India and at the same time claim that the idea of Brahminical hegemony is silly?

Because it's done by merit. Look at higher education. Two communities consistently make up a large part of the toppers lists - Brahmins and businessmen. Over half the people in top posts in the media in India are Brahmin (conservative estimate) - and this is an area where there is no discrimination to speak of. Look at the courts - the one institution in India which people still have faith left if - and the list of judges' names reads like a laundry list of upper caste surnames. Look at the IT industry - we took to that like a duck takes to water. Look at prominent people in most walks of life (except business). All this is personal achievement.

All this is because we're desperate. We know that education is out ONLY refuge. The businessman's son has his father's business and family, the farmer his land, someone else something else, but we have ONLY our learning and education. The only way we can maintain a middle class or better existence is by learning and learning well.

Originally posted by Arrian

Apparently it tends to produce a persecution complex.

-Arrian

I'm probably the last person who thinks he is persecuted. Maybe I'm just bad at projecting myself here.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Arrian
It's standard operating procedure throughout the history of conquest, really. Hence my example of the Romans in Britain.

That means that, even if I find your sources for the OP dubious, I am willing to buy into the idea that the priestly caste took a beating. That's all I was trying to say when I was talking about how logical and believeable it was. Get it?

-Arrian

I agree.

What makes it particularly sensitive is that Brahmins were not just priests, they were also representatives (of society at large). So striking at them meant not just a strike at their religion, but also a strike at everyone who looked up to them (which meant in general everybody).

The closest I can come is the strike on the WTC - it was meant to drive home that fact that OBL is against everything America and the West holds dear.

[Jon Miller]

Soceity has proved that having a culture of learning is one of the greatest advantages people can have.

As such, yes, Brahims have a huge advantage. Also, you admit many (most?) Brahims are middle class, which isn't the case in India at large.

Brahims are the only (sub)cultural group to emphasize learning. I think that the Jews have done so as well (for example).

JM

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by aneeshm
But then, what IS a reliable source? It is unfortunate that most people who write about it today have an agenda, and the original papers are not available to us now, or else I would have go to the primary sources.

There should be primary sources at least for the last bit of the inquisition after the big quake of Lisbon (1755), when much of the archives was destroyed. However, there seems to be something in the National Archives in Portugal:

http://ttonline.iantt.pt/dserve.exe?dsqServer=calm6&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=overview.tcl&dsqSearch=(RefNo='PT-TT-TSO')

Originally posted by aneeshm
(research of this sort does that to people).

My research on Latin America taught me to differentiate more, instead. I still hate the intolerant Iberian brand of Catholicism but I more often find myself defending the Church and Iberians because the claims made by the Black Legend are often ludicrous.

The second book is a primary source by a person who was persecuted by the Goan inquisition - very definitely not an unbiased account, but the best we have as of primary sources.

That would surely make an excellent read. But no one here wants to paint the inquisition as a liberal club, so individual episodes like that have happened. I'm ragin against the exorbitant numbers, the completely wrong depiction of how the Inquisition works etc., which show that the whole thing is propaganda.

[lord of the mark]

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Wernazuma III My research on Latin America taught me to differentiate more, instead. I still hate the intolerant Iberian brand of Catholicism but I more often find myself defending the Church and Iberians because the claims made by the Black Legend are often ludicrous.

That would surely make an excellent read. But no one here wants to paint the inquisition as a liberal club, so individual episodes like that have happened. I'm ragin against the exorbitant numbers, the completely wrong depiction of how the Inquisition works etc., which show that the whole thing is propaganda.

I find the phrase "black legend" is itself largely associated with a specific agenda, and is seldom used by serious historians (at least ones ive read).

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller

Soceity has proved that having a culture of learning is one of the greatest advantages people can have.

It's the only thing which allows you to stay on top of whatever social change is going on at the moment. The powerful will come and go, but the learned will always have a hegemony on morality and societal standards, even if they have no real power.

Originally posted by Jon Miller

As such, yes, Brahims have a huge advantage. Also, you admit many (most?) Brahims are middle class, which isn't the case in India at large.

As far as my knowledge goes, most Brahmins are middle class, a few are extremely rich, and a few are poor. But it's an overwhelmingly middle-class caste.

Originally posted by Jon Miller

Brahims are the only (sub)cultural group to emphasize learning. I think that the Jews have done so as well (for example).

JM

Lots of groups emphasise learning, but very few derive their legitimacy from it. That's why I said that a lot of us are driven by desperation - we have no choice but to learn, and there is always the pressure of the ages, of the spirits of our ancestors looking at us and telling us to get cracking and study.

We're probably also the only group where membership can be extended to those outside the group who show exception erudition or literary or intellectual ability (the author of the oldest and most influential Hindu epic was a person who was once an outcaste - but is revered by everyone, more so the Brahmins, today). There is the famous story of the Chandala and Adi Shankar:

During the long stay at Kasi, one morning Sankara was returning with his disciples from the temple of Visvesvara. An outcaste, leading four dogs, stood on the way. Sankara asked him to clear away from the path. But the outcaste did not move and asked Sankara, "From which, do you want and, what, to go where? Do you want this body, which has been similarly built out of food? Do you want one living consciousness to go away from another? What do you say, Oh! Learned Brahmin? Which do you want to differentiate; this body of matter or the living Chaitanya?"

Sankara was struck dumb at this, as the very purpose of all his teachings, that the Self alone is the sole Reality, had been summarised by the Chandala in a single verse. Sankara immediately understood the Vedantic purport of the Chandala's question and also conjectured that the Lord Himself had come in the form of a Chandala to test if Sankara had realised the truth that he had been teaching. He then uttered in reply, those immortal slokas which go by the name of "Manishapanchaka". These represent the high watermark of Sankara's teaching, where the consistency of a remorseless dialectician, Sankara declares, that he, who has realised the oneness of the Brahman, and he who has intuited the Truth of this doctrine, is fit to be even Sankara's master, even though he, be a Chandala or a high caste Brahmin by birth.

[Sandman]

Invaders kill, persecute group X centuries ago.

This makes nationalists angry, or something.

Orwell:

Obsession. As nearly as possible, no nationalist ever thinks, talks, or writes about anything except the superiority of his own power unit. It is difficult if not impossible for any nationalist to conceal his allegiance. The smallest slur upon his own unit, or any implied praise of a rival organization, fills him with uneasiness which he can relieve only by making some sharp retort. If the chosen unit is an actual country, such as Ireland or India, he will generally claim superiority for it not only in military power and political virtue, but in art, literature, sport, structure of the language, the physical beauty of the inhabitants, and perhaps even in climate, scenery and cooking.

[Jon Miller]

So than you admit that Brahmin's have huge advantages over all subcultures in India?

JM

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Sandman
Invaders kill, persecute group X centuries ago.

This makes nationalists angry, or something.

Orwell:

I assume that that description was supposed to apply to me?

If so, then what of all the other threads I've made? The analysis of Harry Potter, for one, which is as far from nationalism as it can get.

As for superiority, I claim only four things as superior: art, literature (both dead now, unfortunately), structure of the language, and cooking (which are still thriving).

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
So than you admit that Brahmin's have huge advantages over all subcultures in India?

JM

Of course.

But that advantage is not something that can be transmitted from generation to generation passively like wealth can, it has to be earned by each generation by its own toil. The wealth of knowledge has to be earned by each person, it cannot be given as a gift no matter how much you may want to give it. The greatest thing a Brahmin parent can do for his son is to give him the best education he (the parent) can afford. The rest is up to the son. (Son refers to offspring - it includes daughters)

As I said, desperation is a very good motivator to struggle to stay on top.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Inquisition

PURGE THE XENOS!







Seriously, aneeshm, if you really think that the Roman Catholic Church crucified anyone, you're either smoking some fine crack cocaine or you have no clue, none, what the importance of the crucifixion means to Christians.

[Straybow]

Meh. Goans were no doubt inquisited (if that's the word), but put to death? No. That was not the desired result and these guys were good at getting their desired result. And crucified? Certainly not. Nothing but Bharatist villification of foreigners.

The Swami is called a "Hindu Pope" because his proclamations are being treated as such by his supporters.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I find the phrase "black legend" is itself largely associated with a specific agenda, and is seldom used by serious historians (at least ones ive read).

While the term "Black Legend" was coined by a person with a "leyenda rosa"-agenda, it is a generally accepted term for the (mostly Protestant) anti-Spanish propaganda in the times of European "religious civil war", and is used by almost every historian I came across who works on Spain or Latin America.

And I hope I count as a serious historian for you.