The worst Inquitision.....

[C0ckney]

wernazuma, dammit, i was trying to do a nice bit of trolling and there you go and start bringing facts into this thread

[Arrian]

Seriously, Oerdin, you can lay the deaths of lots of native americans at the doorstep of various European countries, but specifically the inquisition killing 12 million people?

Estimates for the pre-Columbian population of the Americas are all over the place. What is clear is that the population declined dramatically, mostly (overwhelming so) due to disease. Diseases introduced, of course, by the European explorers/conquistadors/colonists and yes, missionaries and the like.

-Arrian

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The history of the Catholic Inquisitions are widely taught in the US as well though I can't recall reading about the one in Goa. In the US the Spanish Inquisitor's work in Latin America gets more press as rightly it should. Goa was just 30,000 people where as Latin America's natives were something like 12 million people (after disease killed most of them).

Inquisition was created to fight heresy among catholics / christians, not to convert non-christians. If they did that, well, it was wrong, but it has happened in every religion, including buddhism and atheism.

Catholic church was the sole institution defending the rights of (American) Indians.

I seriously doubt there are no temples in Goa.

The death toll is absurd. It'd be good if You supported it with something.
In Europe, where almost everyone was christian, but had some heresies and had thousands more population, it can not be proven by contemporary sources that more than a couple of thousand peoples were sentenced to death. Of course, more were persecuted, but death penalty was rarely needed.
It is fashionable, though, to attack christianity and catholicism especially by exagerrating informations about the numbers of victims.

What's the source of this list of prohibitions? Were they applied to Hindus, or (much more likely) to Hindus who, having converted to catholicism retained traditions considered pagan?

I hardly should bother with pathethic trolls like that, but oh well.

Aneeshm, do You feel sick now, when hindu fanaticks blow up churches or mosques, rape nuns, forbid missionary activity or forcibly convert people to hinduism?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


More idiocy. The Spanish Inquisition was pretty lax on the American Indian population. Death sentences of the Spanish inquisition were also very few and where they happened, it wasmostly against "judaizantes" and a few selected heretics who were "stubborn" or "serial offenders" who had an inquisitorial process before but "continued in their heresy".
We can discuss the causes of the population decline in Spanish America but the Spanish Inquisition had not the least part in it. The Catholic Church did quite a bit to destroy indigenous cultures, since they couldn't accept their religious dimension, but also cannot be made responsible for mass killings. On the contrary, it was mostly clergymen (not only a few selected, but the majority of bishops too), who kept critizicing the cruelty of Spanish encomenderos and officials against Indians. The Jesuits were protecting the indigenous population heavily, at least in the physical aspect.

Did you even bother to read what I wrote before you wrote your response? You clearly aren't responding to my post and are off on some imagined tangent.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Heresson
Inquisition was created to fight Heresson among catholics / christians

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Did you even bother to read what I wrote before you wrote your response? You clearly aren't responding to my post and are off on some imagined tangent.

My fault. I didn't read the sentence in the middle. But your post still makes little sense: So you think there's made too much of the Spanish Inquisition (in the Americas)? But what do the numbers of the last sentence imply then?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Heresson

What's the source of this list of prohibitions? Were they applied to Hindus, or (much more likely) to Hindus who, having converted to catholicism retained traditions considered pagan?

They were applicable to every person living in Goa. I got the list from the Wiki. From another source, here is an edict:

His Majesty the king has ordered that there shall be no Brahmins in his land and that they should be banished.'

'In the name of his Majesty I order that no Hindu can or shall perform marriages…'

'The marriages of the supplicants are superstitious acts or functions which include Hindu rites and ceremonies as well as cult, adoration and prayers of Hindu temples…'

'I order that no Hindu temples be erected in any of the territories of my king… and that Hindu temples which already have been erected be not repaired…'

Another (this one is probably biased) source detailing the horrors.

Originally posted by Heresson

Aneeshm, do You feel sick now, when hindu fanaticks blow up churches or mosques, rape nuns, forbid missionary activity or forcibly convert people to hinduism?

If they did these things, I would definitely feel sick. But they don't.

I've seen the video of the demolition of the Babri mosque, and I've seen that the Hindu groups who organised the event where the crowd went out of control, these groups were trying to prevent the mosque from being demolished, because it wasn't on the agenda. They wanted to demolish the structure after the Supreme Court ruled in their favour. The head of the VHP, as well as the workers and volunteers of the RSS, they were all trying to stop the people from getting to the mosque. Here's a link to the video: Google Video. It's in Hindi, but if you watch for about fifteen to twenty minutes, you can see that the RSS organisers and the VHP people tried to stop it.

This is about the only mosque/church which has been demolished.

Rape nuns - this is false information. When interviewed, the nuns themselves admitted that it was the doing of Bhil tribals of the region. It was the media who said that it was Hindu fanatics who did this - with absolutely NO proof. And later, they did not print an apology, either.

Let me quote Francis Gautier on this:

Now to come to the recent cases of persecution of Christians in India at the hands of Hindu groups. I have personally investigated quite a few, amongst them the rape of the four nuns in Jhabua, MP, nearly two years ago. This rape is still quoted as an example of the 'atrocities' committed by Hindus on Christians.

Yet, when I interviewed the four innocent nuns, they themselves admitted, along with George Anatil, the bishop of Indore, that it had nothing to do with religion: it was the doing of a gang of Bhil tribals, known to perpetrate this kind of hateful acts on their own women. Today, the Indian press, the Christian hierarchy and the politicians, continue to include the Jhabua rape in the list of atrocities against the Christians.

Or take the burning of churches in Andhra Pradesh a few months ago, which was supposed to have been committed by the "fanatic" RSS. It was proved later that it was actually the handiwork of Indian Muslims, at the behest of the ISI to foment hatred between Christians and Hindus. Yet the Indian press which went berserk at the time of the burnings, mostly kept quiet when the true nature of the perpetrators was revealed.

About the church bombings - all the work of Muslims inspired by the Pakistani intelligence agencies. Check it out for yourself:

Special report on the group which carried out the blasts
Blast suspects held
BJP demands apology from Sangh critics for blaming them without proof


Forbid missionary activity - another pernicious lie. What is forbidden is conversion by force or by inducement. You cannot convert 75 % of a village and throw the rest out, as many missionaries do in India in the north-East. Nor can you offer people money so that they will convert. Normal conversion is not barred AT ALL. Anywhere.


Forcibly convert people to Hinduism - this is the first time I've heard this one. Could you give an example, please?

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Nor can you offer people money so that they will convert.

Why not?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson


Inquisition was created to fight heresy among catholics / christians, not to convert non-christians.

Including in Spain, rejudaizing by new Christians who had in fact originally converted to escape violence. I guess thats technically not using the inquisition against non-Christians.

And according to Netanyahu (the historian whose son became PM of Israel) the inquisition also went after New Christians who werent actually rejudaizing. The motivations were envy and racism.

[C0ckney]

i love the way that after aneeshm's OP has been shown to be a complete pile of ****, he just ignores it and carries on with his usual rubbish.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Why not?

some people, not only in India, think that there cultures should not be for sale, even if individuals want to sell.

While Im all for free trade, Im not sure the prohibition on material inducements to convert constitutes a real limitation on freedom of conscience. Though I can see how it could be abused in marginal cases.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Why not?

That's because these people (missionaries and their ilk) target illiterate tribals and poor people. It's abused even further. They go to some area, set up a small church, then put up a "miracle box", where people are asked to make a wish for themselves and write their name and details, and put it in the box. A few days later, wonder of wonder, by a "miracle", the man gets his wish! All this is funded by money coming from evangelical organisations from outside India. This is fraud and inducement at its finest, and it is to stop this sort of abuse that these laws are passed.

[lord of the mark]

"Six Marrano men and six women were burned alive for allegedly practicing Judaism. The Auto da Fe (Act of Faith) combined the Judicial ceremony of the Inquisition with vociferous sermons. An individual could be denounced for having lapsed back into his old religion or committing heresy. Although the Inquisition and the Auto da Fe was used on anyone accused of heresy, its main victims were Jews. The inquisition accused people of backsliding or heresy for actions such as not eating pig (for whatever reason), washing hands before prayer, changing clothes on the Sabbath, etc. Over two thousand Auto da Fes are said to have taken place in the Iberian Peninsula and its colonies. The number of victims in Spain alone is estimated at 39,912, many of whom were burned alive. Some were burned in effigy. Others, convicted posthumously, were dug up and burned - and the property they left was confiscated from their heirs. Approximately 340,000 people, many of them Jews, suffered at the hands of the Inquisition, although the vast majority were given lesser punishments. The last Auto da Fe was held in 1790. "


How the arrogant have devoured us.

[Provost Harrison]

"No one expects the Indian inquisition!"

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by C0ckney


i love the way that after aneeshm's OP has been shown to be a complete pile of ****, he just ignores it and carries on with his usual rubbish.

Pile of ****? Please read the bits which I posted later in support of my position, will you? I got the figure from a random site from the internet, but that's the only questionable thing in the OP. The rest is substantial, and I have substantiated it. Refer to post #22. It gives sources.