The worst Inquitision.....

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
"No one expects the Indian inquisition!"

The people who were murdered in Goa certainly didn't.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Arrian
Seriously, Oerdin, you can lay the deaths of lots of native americans at the doorstep of various European countries, but specifically the inquisition killing 12 million people?

Jesus ****ing Christ. READ THE POST! I didn't say the inquisition killed 12 million people I was saying the population of Latin America around the time of theinquisition was 12 million. I have reread the OP and I see that it claims 30k were killed in Goa when I thought it said the population of Goa was 30k. I was trying to compare pop of 30k to pop of 12 million not kill rates.

[Heresson]

Forbid missionary activity - another pernicious lie. What is forbidden is conversion by force or by inducement.
You cannot convert 75 % of a village and throw the rest out, as many missionaries do in India in the north-East. Nor can you offer people money so that they will convert. Normal conversion is not barred AT ALL. Anywhere.

We've already had discussion about it, long ago, and I explained that the problem is that in the regions where more fanatic hindus are in power, ALL conversions are treaten as forcible conversions, and considered illegal. The "by force or allurement" part is only a cover.
Or they are legal, but require acceptance from the authorities...

Also,

Swami Swarupananda Saraswati, has denounced conversions to other faiths and called on the government to impose “a complete ban on change of faith”.

Isn't that the guy You like so much?

http://magicstatistics.com/2006/11/09/hindu-militants-want-conversions-prohibited-while-they-re-convert-christians/

Forcibly convert people to Hinduism - this is the first time I've heard this one. Could you give an example, please?

Hindu extremists yesterday forced Christians in the remote village of Bevainahalli, in the southern state of Karnataka, to bow down before Hindu deities and applied the vermilion mark to their foreheads. Two Hindu priests accompanied by a group of 20 to 25 Hindu extremists from the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and its youth wing, the Bajrang Dal, entered Chitradurga district’s Bevainahalli village and knocked on the door of every home. The extremists marched the Christians off to the village temple, forcing them to bow down before the Hindu gods and goddesses. Police Inspector K.L. Krishna only watched as the Hindu extremists violated the Christians’ constitutional right to freedom of religion with this “initiation rite.”

http://compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=short&idelement=4619&backpage=summaries

on the previous page, here as well

there were mo matters like that. Search in the internet, You shall find a lot of attacks on clergy, attacks on church, denying christians sits in local parliaments because they admitted they targetted christians in their campaigns, etc

[Heresson]

Originally posted by aneeshm


They were applicable to every person living in Goa. I got the list from the Wiki. From another source, here is an edict:

Another (this one is probably biased)

Kanchan Gupta is a political analyst based at the Bharatiya Janata Party headquarters in Delhi and editor of the party's official organ, BJP Today.

This is about the only mosque/church which has been demolished.

Well, India's christians claim otherwise.

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Pile of ****? Please read the bits which I posted later in support of my position, will you? I got the figure from a random site from the internet, but that's the only questionable thing in the OP. The rest is substantial, and I have substantiated it. Refer to post #22. It gives sources.

i really think you need to learn what it means to substantiate something. in support of your position you've posted something from christianaggression.com, which you warn may be a little biased ( ), and also an article from...

Kanchan Gupta is a political analyst based at the Bharatiya Janata Party headquarters in Delhi and editor of the party's official organ, BJP Today.

now there's a reliable source...! that whole article is pure indian nationalist crap, essentially saying that because of something that happened centuries ago, we should ignore the 'excesses' as he puts it, against christians today. if you can't see the basic stupidity of his argument, then i'm afraid i can't help you.

i daresay that the some of the orders talked about were issued and that many hindus had a less than pleasant time at the hands of the authorities in goa. in the scheme of things however, this is all very tame stuff.

the numbers you talked about were the main thrust of your post, along with the 'killing at sight [sic]' and crucifixion of brahmins, and all the rest of it (you'll note that even that idiot gupta doesn't mention these). as these are totally false, your point is wholly worthless.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Heresson


We've already had discussion about it, long ago, and I explained that the problem is that in the regions where more fanatic hindus are in power, ALL conversions are treaten as forcible conversions, and considered illegal. The "by force or allurement" part is only a cover.
Or they are legal, but require acceptance from the authorities...

Sorry, but that's not true. The maximum you have to do is register one month in advance that you're converting. That is ALL.

And could you give me proof that the people in power are fanatics? Or are we supposed to take that without proof?

Originally posted by Heresson

Also,


Isn't that the guy You like so much?

http://magicstatistics.com/2006/11/09/hindu-militants-want-conversions-prohibited-while-they-re-convert-christians/

First time I've heard of the guy. And another thing - that article you linked to is BS. There is no "Hindu Pope". What rubbish.

And I traced that article to the primary source, which had this:

The religious man said: “Hinduism respects other faiths. But conversion through allurement is unethical. Those indulging in conversion perhaps don't realize they are hurting their own faith".

Not quite what was implied, eh?

Originally posted by Heresson

http://compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=short&idelement=4619&backpage=summaries

on the previous page, here as well

If that had happened, there would have been a HELL of a hullabaloo in the Indian media. The most unlikely things are blamed on the RSS. Compass direct's source is ....... Compass direct. I haven't heard about this from a single reputable news source, from within India or from outside. I call BS. And the site calls itself "News from the frontiers of persecution". Not very reliable, specially when it gives no sources other than itself.

Originally posted by Heresson

there were mo matters like that. Search in the internet, You shall find a lot of attacks on clergy, attacks on church, denying christians sits in local parliaments because they admitted they targetted christians in their campaigns, etc

Please give me concrete examples of attacks on clergy or attacks on churches. Denying Christians seats in local parliament if they targeted Christians is perfectly justifiable - the same is done to people who target any particular community. Targeting a specific community is banned as unethical by the Election Commission, because it violates the separation of religion and state. Tomorrow I cannot target Hindus, either. This first became a hot issue when somebody accused a Hindu of doing it (though later the guy was exonerated).

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by C0ckney


i really think you need to learn what it means to substantiate something. in support of your position you've posted something from christianaggression.com, which you warn may be a little biased ( ), and also an article from...



now there's a reliable source...! that whole article is pure indian nationalist crap, essentially saying that because of something that happened centuries ago, we should ignore the 'excesses' as he puts it, against christians today. if you can't see the basic stupidity of his argument, then i'm afraid i can't help you.

i daresay that the some of the orders talked about were issued and that many hindus had a less than pleasant time at the hands of the authorities in goa. in the scheme of things however, this is all very tame stuff.

the numbers you talked about were the main thrust of your post, along with the 'killing at sight [sic]' and crucifixion of brahmins, and all the rest of it (you'll note that even that idiot gupta doesn't mention these). as these are totally false, your point is wholly worthless.

The numbers were not the main thrust. The fact that Brahmins were killed and thrown out, and that people could be killed simply for having an idol or tulsi plant in the house is the thrust of my argument. It's persecution, plain and simple, and it's the worst Inquisition in the world. Check the Wiki if you like. This sort of thing didn't happen even in Spain.

As for tame stuff:

His Majesty the king has ordered that there shall be no Brahmins in his land and that they should be banished.'

'In the name of his Majesty I order that no Hindu can or shall perform marriages…'

'The marriages of the supplicants are superstitious acts or functions which include Hindu rites and ceremonies as well as cult, adoration and prayers of Hindu temples…'

'I order that no Hindu temples be erected in any of the territories of my king… and that Hindu temples which already have been erected be not repaired…'

And

Prohibitions

* Yajnopaveetam ceremony (initiation ceremony for Hindu boys) and other Hindu ceremonies are banned.
* The instruments for Hindu songs cannot be played.
* While giving dowry the relatives of the bride and groom must not be invited to the dwelling.
* At the time of marriage, betel leaf packages (pan) may not be distributed either publicly or in private to the persons present.
* Flowers, or fried puris; betel nuts and leaves cannot be sent to the heads of the houses of the bride or groom.
* Gotrah ceremony of the family God must not be performed.
* On the day prior to a wedding, rice must not be husked, spices must not be pounded, grains must not be ground and Hindu recipes marriage feast must not be cooked.
* Pandals and festoons must not be used.
* Pithi may not be applied.
* The bride will be accorded ceremonial welcome. The bride and groom will not sit under the pandal to convey blessings and best wishes to them.
* The poor must not be fed or ceremonial meals must not be served for the peace of the souls of the dead.
* There should be no fasting on ekadashi day.
* Fasting can only be done according to the Christian principles.
* No rituals should be performed on the twelfth day after death, on moonless and full moon dates.
* No fasting should be done during lunar eclipse.
* Nobody shall bear Hindu names or surnames.

Tame stuff, all right.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by aneeshm

Targeting a specific community is banned as unethical by the Election Commission, because it violates the separation of religion and state.

Is this the same "state" that requires a person to register their faith conversion one month in advance? Good separation.

[C0ckney]

aneeshm, i don't mean to sound harsh, but if you want to learn about the portuguese in india and their empire in the east, which is after all a truly fascinating subject, then you need to read some real history, by real historians. not politicised rubbish spewed out by people whose agenda is obvious to everyone, apart from you, it would appear.

a good starting point would to read empires of the monsoon, by richard hall, which is an excellent book about the history of the indian ocean, its peoples and invaders. it contains a lot of information on the portuguese in the region, their rule and the church and also includes an extensive list of further reading material on the subject.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Wezil


Is this the same "state" that requires a person to register their faith conversion one month in advance? Good separation.

That is done to ensure that freedom of conscience is not compromised by people taking advantage of illiteracy.

Remember the "miracle boxes".

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Including in Spain, rejudaizing by new Christians who had in fact originally converted to escape violence. I guess thats technically not using the inquisition against non-Christians.

While it's true in the essence, it's not true technically, since they couldn't have done this without the previous conversion. You can rightfully say that they perfectly knew a formal conversation doesn't mean they lost their original religion. That's true, that's why the Inquisition was behind them.
The other choice was exile, something not ordered by the Church. The expulsion of the jews was religiously motivated, but a pure governmental measure

And according to Netanyahu (the historian whose son became PM of Israel) the inquisition also went after New Christians who werent actually rejudaizing. The motivations were envy and racism.

Also only partially true. Yes, Spanish society was rather racist with their concept of "pure blood" (which meant several generations without new christian ancestors). But the motives that led to accusations, in those cases where the accused didn't even rejudaize, were more often greed and competition than anything else. If you have a competitor and want him out, search for the weak spot. Oh, he's a new christian. Good, let's accuse him. He'll either be convicted or at least thrown to jail for some years until he can prove his "innocence".

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by C0ckney
aneeshm, i don't mean to sound harsh, but if you want to learn about the portuguese in india and their empire in the east, which is after all a truly fascinating subject, then you need to read some real history, by real historians. not politicised rubbish spewed out by people whose agenda is obvious to everyone, apart from you, it would appear.

a good starting point would to read empires of the monsoon, by richard hall, which is an excellent book about the history of the indian ocean, its peoples and invaders. it contains a lot of information on the portuguese in the region, their rule and the church and also includes an extensive list of further reading material on the subject.

I realise that these people have an agenda, which I may not agree with a lot of times, however, the facts they base their arguments on are solid. And most of the times, these people are driven not by politics but by conviction. I've seen them, I know them, and I know that the motive which drives them is the glory of India. The RSS, or RSS inspired organisations, have done more social work in India without caring for caste or religion than probably all other organisations combined (excepting the government, of course - and it seems that when it comes to education, they'll be outdoing the government soon).

However, as you recommend that book, I'll look into it. It's always good to learn history from many different sources. But I have seen that most authors cover history from a European viewpoint, with a slight bias towards the people with the "civilising mission".

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
"Six Marrano men and six women were burned alive for allegedly practicing Judaism. The Auto da Fe (Act of Faith) combined the Judicial ceremony of the Inquisition with vociferous sermons. An individual could be denounced for having lapsed back into his old religion or committing heresy. Although the Inquisition and the Auto da Fe was used on anyone accused of heresy, its main victims were Jews. The inquisition accused people of backsliding or heresy for actions such as not eating pig (for whatever reason), washing hands before prayer, changing clothes on the Sabbath, etc. Over two thousand Auto da Fes are said to have taken place in the Iberian Peninsula and its colonies. The number of victims in Spain alone is estimated at 39,912, many of whom were burned alive. Some were burned in effigy. Others, convicted posthumously, were dug up and burned - and the property they left was confiscated from their heirs. Approximately 340,000 people, many of them Jews, suffered at the hands of the Inquisition, although the vast majority were given lesser punishments. The last Auto da Fe was held in 1790. "


How the arrogant have devoured us.

This is also from Netanyahu? I guess, he then still depended on the old interpolations of death sentences which were exaggerated. Look for newer studies, they came to the conclusion that the numbers were considerably lower. But the Jews were surely those who suffered most, protestants and other heretics were more likely to be "reconciliado". Many judaizantes who were not convicted to death died during torture, something one would hardly find among other groups of accused. So, again, right in the essence, but the numbers have been corrected^.

[C0ckney]

too easy...

Originally posted by aneeshm
The numbers were not the main thrust. The fact that Brahmins were killed and thrown out, and that people could be killed simply for having an idol or tulsi plant in the house is the thrust of my argument. It's persecution, plain and simple, and it's the worst Inquisition in the world. Check the Wiki if you like. This sort of thing didn't happen even in Spain.

o rly? so the 100,000 killed [sic] and the crucifixion and murder at sight [sic] of brahmins, weren't the main bits, the sensational bits, the attention grabbing bits...?



so really what you are left with is that some brahmins had property taken, or were banished, a few might even have been killed and the rest had to live under some harsh rules. WOW.

Tame stuff, all right.

yes, it is. more tame than a WI tea party.

[aneeshm]

I went to amazon, and the second review of the book had this to say:

Vasco da Gama (who was held up to me in school as being a "great explorer") once won a small battle off of the coast of India and when he took some of his foes captive he cut off their ears, noses and hands and then put the poor wretches on a ship and set the ship ablaze. When the fire was over not everyone was dead so da Gama took the survivors and had them hoisted up on the masts of one of his own ships and let his archers have some target practice....

WTF? Are you recommending an unbiased book or are you trying to substantiate my point for me?