The worst Inquitision.....

[aneeshm]

I've realised that the VHPs and the RSSs bad image comes from their selective silences - even when someone from an associated organisation does something wrong, they stay silent instead of denouncing it, even though it goes against their policies. They should be more outspoken about their views, and clear up the air, so to speak.

[Arrian]

Oh come on, aneeshm! You link to blatantly biased sites constantly and at most will offer up a hollow disclaimer like "it might be a little biased"

Then, when presented with a link to a similar site, but one that's not Hindu (Heresson's Christian source), you call bull****.

See, I call bull**** on both. Neither one strikes me as a reliable source. Yet you will back one and dismiss the other. Why? Because you're a Hindu with a massive chip on your shoulder.

-Arrian

[aneeshm]

Now Rediff is blatantly biased? When I thought a site was biased, I said so. I had no idea that that Rediff article was by a BJP analyst before it was pointed out to me by the people here. But the others still stand. But I'm willing to accept that some of my sources may be biased, and I put a disclaimer when necessary.

But then, what IS a reliable source? It is unfortunate that most people who write about it today have an agenda, and the original papers are not available to us now, or else I would have go to the primary sources.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Arrian
Oh come on, aneeshm! You link to blatantly biased sites constantly and at most will offer up a hollow disclaimer like "it might be a little biased"

Then, when presented with a link to a similar site, but one that's not Hindu (Heresson's Christian source), you call bull****.

See, I call bull**** on both. Neither one strikes me as a reliable source. Yet you will back one and dismiss the other. Why? Because you're a Hindu with a massive chip on your shoulder.

-Arrian

Exactly. It's all about balance. Calling bull**** is an equal opportunity endeavour

[Arrian]

I would be more likely to trust a proper historian who produced a work on the topic that wasn't blatantly politicized. It does not appear (from a quick google search) that such work is available online. Most likely this would mean someone who was neither Indian nor Portugese, but that's certainly not a requirement, because historians of those two nationalities are obviously the most likely to take an interest in this sordid episode of history.

In order to find a reliable source, I might have to *gasp* go and get a real book out of the library. That would require more interest that I actually have. I know the inquisition was bad news, and furthermore I find the details depressing. People were tortured and killed for their (religious) beliefs. Ugh, more of that ****, ya know?

-Arrian

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Arrian
I would be more likely to trust a proper historian who produced a work on the topic that wasn't blatantly politicized. It does not appear (from a quick google search) that such work is available online. Most likely this would mean someone who was neither Indian nor Portugese, but that's certainly not a requirement, because historians of those two nationalities are obviously the most likely to take an interest in this sordid episode of history.

In order to find a reliable source, I might have to *gasp* go and get a real book out of the library. That would require more interest that I actually have. I know the inquisition was bad news, and furthermore I find the details depressing. People were tortured and killed for their (religious) beliefs. Ugh, more of that ****, ya know?

-Arrian

Unfortunately, there are no libraries of that size in Pune.

Well, there is ONE (the British Council Library), but that takes years of waiting if you want to become a member. I do have an aunt who is a member, so I'll ask here if she can sneak me in, so to speak.

[Arrian]

That sucks. I actually don't know if the public libraries I use have any good books on the Goan Inquisition. I just figured that somebody had done a proper historical study of it. It's possible that noone has, and only the extremists with agendas have really written much about it.

-Arrian

[LordShiva]

I mean, it's safe to say that a lot of screwed up stuff happened in Goa, and in India in general, at the hands of Christians (especially the Catholics, I would think - sorry, Heresson, but it's true). I'm just wary of accepting specifics, such as death tolls, without sufficient evidence.

[Arrian]

It's entirely possible (likely, even?) that an accurate death toll figure is unknowable. The records simply may not exist. Further, whether 1,000 people died, or 10,000 or even the 100,000 claimed in the OP, it's a very bad thing.

That the priestly caste would take a beating makes perfect sense to me... it's logical and quite believeable: when the Romans decided that the religion of the Celts in Britain was a problem, they slaughtered the Druids. If you want to convert the populace, you need to either co-opt or destroy the priests of the old religion.

-Arrian

[aneeshm]

A preliminary google search revealed two books, one being a scholarly work and another being a primary source.

Link to the first

The only customer review of the first:

Dry and scholarly... but horrifying, September 25, 2003
Reviewer: Sanjay Agarwal (India) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
Most Indians believe that Goa was settled by Portuguese. This is what the history text books have taught them. But the facts are quite different. Goa (Gomantak) was a bustling place, settled by Indians continuously from at least 1200 B.C. It was a famous pilgrimmage, often known as Kashi of West.
Till the Portuguese missionaries came. They launched an agrressive program of converting native Hindus and Muslims to Christianity. Hundreds of Hindu temples were destroyed, and Brahmins were chased out.
Many converted as a result of this. The new converts were ordered to give up their 'heathen' practices. However, when friendly methods failed to keep the newly converted within the flock, inquisition was called in.
The Goan inquisition has often been called the worst in the history of Christianity. It continued for about 250 years from 1570's till 1812, when the British put an end to it.
Incidentally, the Goans did not take this lying down. According to the World Book encyclopedia, Goa witnessed 400 revolts in the 400 years of Portueguese occupation.
The book gives a scholarly, dry narrative of the excesses of inquistion. Properly speaking there is no narrative as such, rather sections, such as in a thesis. It is really more of a documentation effort, as stated in the title. There are lots of references of sources and footnotes, which add authority to the book.
It also reproduces some accounts of the inquisiton written by a Frenchamn named Dhillon, who managed to escape it with his life. Some photographs, sketches, and maps are included. he location of the 'big house' (called 'orlem ghor' in Goanese), where thousands were interred is also shown in a map. There are sketches showing auto da fe (where victims were burnt alive) and some of the more popular tortures. However, the maps are quite old, and it is difficult to locate the ruins in Old Goa, where even the museum staff are ignorant about the site or history of inquisition.
Overall a good buy, if you are interested in Indian history. Incidentally, a reprint has been published by Voice of India in New Delhi.

It seems it was not written with an agenda ("dry and scholarly", apparently), but the author may have later become biased because of his own research, judging by his later work (research of this sort does that to people).


The second book is a primary source by a person who was persecuted by the Goan inquisition - very definitely not an unbiased account, but the best we have as of primary sources.

[Arrian]

Now that sounds like what I'm talking about right there.

Amazon doesn't even have it, but just for fun I'll check and see if the Hartford Public Library does...

edit: 'twas as I expected. No matches for search criteria.

-Arrian

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Arrian
It's entirely possible (likely, even?) that an accurate death toll figure is unknowable. The records simply may not exist. Further, whether 1,000 people died, or 10,000 or even the 100,000 claimed in the OP, it's a very bad thing.

That the priestly caste would take a beating makes perfect sense to me... it's logical and quite believeable: when the Romans decided that the religion of the Celts in Britain was a problem, they slaughtered the Druids. If you want to convert the populace, you need to either co-opt or destroy the priests of the old religion.

-Arrian

But "logical" does not mean "right", does it?

But we're a resilient lot. Unless the state decides to literally kill us off, there's not much anybody has been able to do to us. We've survived the Muslims, we've survived the British and thrived on the new education they brought, we've co-opted almost all the new institutions in India, and I'd wager pseudo-liberal pseudo-intellectualls will still be moaning about some imagined "Brahminical hegemony" fifty years from now. (When will they learn that there IS no hegemony?)

In fact, the priestly caste took a beating under every invader, actually. We were the first targets for everyone, because we had (and still have, to a large extent) massive mindshare.

From 0 AD to around 1000 AD, being born a Brahmin was a boon. For the next thousand years, it was a curse. Now, it doesn't matter much.





Back on topic - I think that the complete records do exist, but nobody has gone through them (maybe except the said author).

[Arrian]

But "logical" does not mean "right", does it?

Um, of course not. Did you think I was saying that? If so, why?

I was saying it's believeable. Not that it was morally right! Goodness, no.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

But we're a resilient lot... (blah, blah, blah we're great!)

Ok, pat yourself on the back for the deeds of others.

By the way, how can you claim to have co-opted the the institutions of India and at the same time claim that the idea of Brahminical hegemony is silly?

From 0 AD to around 1000 AD, being born a Brahmin was a boon. For the next thousand years, it was a curse. Now, it doesn't matter much.

Apparently it tends to produce a persecution complex.

-Arrian

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Arrian
Apparently it tends to produce a persecution complex.