Damn anti smoking fanatics! Bars can't serve food and allow smoking? WTF!

[Ben Kenobi]

The idea is in a confined space, people are emitting toxic smoke.

Voluntarily, Asher.

Nobody is talking about banning smoking outright.
Nobody is talking about banning smoking outside.
Nobody is talking about banning smoking in your own home.

The issue is in a public place, such as a bar or a restaurant. That is THE distinction here, and I would appreciate it if you COMPREHENDED this before posting again

There is this arcane quality called respect. It's amazing how far that goes to win you arguments.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Voluntarily, Asher.

There's this arcane quality called respect.

Respect that not everybody wants to smoke or inhale smoke, and go outside.

As I posted above, it is entirely unreasonable to ask the majority of people to act if a single person is too lazy to respect them and walk outside to smoke.

There is this arcane quality called respect. It's amazing how far that goes to win you arguments.

How can you respect somebody who consistently has NO IDEA what is being said in a thread?

She makes up her own arguments and then debunks them repeatedly in the thread. I've never seen her not set up strawmen.

There's simply nothing to respect out of that argument, or that person's involvement in the thread. It's a distraction to the real arguments, and it honestly reminds me of when a kid tries to enter a real debate at the grownups table and most people try to humour her...

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher
Let's face facts, nye -- you're clearly a smoker. You're doing something stupid, you know it, but you don't got the balls to man up and quit it. You realize what you're doing hurts your lungs and you realize that it hurts the lungs of people around you, but you're so damn addicted that you just don't care.

That is correct. I am a smoker. I began smoking when tobacco was being advertised on TV. High schools had smoking areas. Smoking was socially acceptable, if not encouraged. My grandparents smoked, my parents smoked. I smoke.

Have the balls to give it up and quit? Yes and no. I'm pretty sure I would not go to the black market if the substance were banned. However, I do find it very difficult to quit the addiction when they are in my face in any store I go into, including pharmacies.

And no, according to what I have read I do know they are hurting me. The problem is a bit like a heroin addict being expected to quit when the powder is hanging on the wall whenever they go to buy groceries.

It is an addiction, and if the health effects are what I am told, I have no idea why they are still legal for yet another generation to fall 'victim' to.

And yes, I do care. That's why I have something to say about the busy bodies who are trying to harass the junkies and not addressing the real issue of tobacco being a legal substance that the government taxes the hell out of.

[laurentius]

Well Asher clearly has a "healthy" sense of self-preservation. I dont hink anyone can blame him for that.

The problem is just how to demonstrate that will to survive. In Asian societies where you always have to take the whole into account this problem with micro particles, wherether from the car pollution, smoking, SARS or from your own flue is solved with people wearing masks. This is for your own good while respecting the others way of life at the same time.

In our self-oriented Western societies its more natural to try to force everyone else to live the way you do. Because afterall its the best way of living. E. G. Op. Iraqi Freedom, banning smoking, other restrictions on freedom of expression etc.

You wanna live? Move to the mountains or live in the cities wearing the NASA spacesuit.

[Ben Kenobi]

So clearly if you want to make a healthy choice you are not permitted to socialize in bars and restaurants incase one person out of every 50 decides to smoke.

That's your decision. No one is forcing you to avoid second hand smoke. If you wanted to you are perfectly able to go to smoking bars and not smoke. Done it myself.

It is simply unacceptable that the MAJORITY of people should have to change their plans/move in public if a MINORITY of people decides he is too lazy to go outside to smoke. That's just courtesy that smokers don't have, and it needs to be regulated.

Again, no one is forcing you to stop going to your favourite bar. You do that by your own decision not to breathe in second hand smoke.

As for the courtesy of smokers, I don't see why smokers should be forced to go outside when the bar permits smoking. Perhaps the non-smokers if they wish to avoid the smoke could go outside to have a non-smoke and then relieve themselves of the poison accumulating in their bodies.

Or they could just have a good time. It's your decision.

Private property as being used in business are still subject to public regulations.

Look up some of the basics of how businesses work and come back and play.

I believe I already cited two examples of relatively recent legislation limiting the operation of bars. Perhaps you should take the time to peruse posts before commenting.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Asher
to smokers right to pump smoke into the public's lungs.

No... I'm just saying that bars owners should have the right to allow or ban smoking in their bars. If it is a smoking bar, non smokers who want to avoid second hand smoke don't have to enter. So I'm not asking for the right to pump smoke into the publics lungs... I'm asking for bars where I'm allowed to smoke away from people who don't want to be exposed to second hand smoke.

On the other hand, when you drive your car, you aren't giving me a choice either. You are polluting everybodies air.

[Ben Kenobi]

How can you respect somebody who consistently has NO IDEA what is being said in a thread?

Well for starters I assume anyone who posts here is fairly intelligent. I've only been proven wrong in a few cases.

She makes up her own arguments and then debunks them repeatedly in the thread. I've never seen her not set up strawmen.

I think you need to read a little more closely. She's made good points, and yet you have insulted her at pretty much every opportunity. I don't see anyone else throwing them at you to warrant that reaction.

There's simply nothing to respect out of that argument, or that person's involvement in the thread. It's a distraction to the real arguments, and it honestly reminds me of when a kid tries to enter a real debate at the grownups table and most people try to humour her..

That's rather presumptuous and arrogant asher. If the arguments are poor a brilliant lad like you ought easily demolish them.

[Asher]

If you guys are going to keep recycling those ridiculous arguments, I think we're done here.

Poor victimized smokers, no longer able to pollute other peoples' lungs legally in public places. They have to go allllll the waayyy outside so the smoke doesn't linger inside.

Oh, the humanity. Who cares if people live because of it, right?

[Ming]

Yes... the personal insults have to stop. Debunk the arguments, offer opinions, state beliefs... but there is no place for personal attacks here.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Well for starters I assume anyone who posts here is fairly intelligent. I've only been proven wrong in a few cases.

Why? All it requires is an AOL account and the ability to type the keyboard. Some of us here can't quite get a hold of the latter, even.

I think you need to read a little more closely. She's made good points

Let me reiterate them for you:
1) Smokers and non-smokers share the same rights
2) Chimney smoke can be annoying some times

Did I miss any?

That's rather presumptuous and arrogant asher. If the arguments are poor a brilliant lad like you ought easily demolish them.

They have been completely demolished, but she hasn't figured it out yet. She keeps posting unrelated arguments ad nauseum instead, which is why it's frustrating.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

oh good lord I have to ask my self and then laugh aout loud cause the only person i have seen whining here is you asher!! you wouldnt be able to see an arguemtnt hat u dont agree with if it hit u in the head. Buts lets all roll over for you the one with no rights and has to suffer at all of our hands. with all that goes on in the world poor poor asher cause he dont agree, nor does he acknowledge that he is not the only peron on the planet earth

[Ming]

Originally posted by Asher
Poor victimized smokers, no longer able to pollute other peoples' lungs legally in public places. They have to go allllll the waayyy outside so the smoke doesn't linger inside.

Again... it's your choice to enter that bar. If you don't want to be exposed to second hand smoke in a bar, you don't have to enter. You can vote with your wallet and support bars that don't allow it. Nobody is asking you to give up any rights. But you are.

[Ming]

Again... as a reminder... let's stop with the personal insults and stay on topic.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Ming


Again... it's your choice to enter that bar. If you don't want to be exposed to second hand smoke in a bar, you don't have to enter. You can vote with your wallet and support bars that don't allow it. Nobody is asking you to give up any rights. But you are.

Now just imagine a place where there arent ANY bars where you can smoke inside anymore. Thats the EU.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
oh good lord I have to ask my self and then laugh aout loud cause the only person i have seen whining here is you asher!! you wouldnt be able to see an arguemtnt hat u dont agree with if it hit u in the head. Buts lets all roll over for you the one with no rights and has to suffer at all of our hands. with all that goes on in the world poor poor asher cause he dont agree, nor does he acknowledge that he is not the only peron on the planet earth

I really don't think there's anything more that can be said about your arguments at this point.