JOhn Kerry Doing his level Best to Energize the base

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Victor Galis



And how is that an insult to every soldier in Iraq? All it says is that some of them didn't have any other choices as a result of ****ing up in life. To claim it implies anything all the troops in general is a logical fallacy.

Perhaps because that is complete horse****. The volunteer military of today is anything but the victim of screwed up life chocies. They by and large are better educated and better read than the vast majority of citizens. To victimize them protrays them as useless tools when they are anything but.

Given my choice of hiring ex military vs. college grad, I'll take military any day of the week.


Of course if you decide that was his true meaning (how those poor volunteer soliders are victims of bad choices) than I guess you concede the point that Kerry is a lying douche bag when he says he really meant he was talking 'bout Bush. Yeah thats the ticket.

[Gatekeeper]

Hmm. I think I know what Sen. John Kerry intended with his comments — i.e., if Bush, et al., had done more homework and more research regarding Iraq, we might not be in the situation we're in now — but it's said in a way that can be spun by certain parties to sound like Kerry slammed folks in the military. Which, when you really think about it, is kind of silly in the first place since the man himself served with distinction in Vietnam.

Regarding Sen. John McCain's "contribution" to the discussion, heh, well, the man is positioning himself for a run at the GOP nomination for the 2008 presidential race. Since the Republican Party is now controlled by religious right-wingers with a penchant for wanting to control the personal lives of the general population, he has to ingratiate himself with them if he hopes to have a shot at winning the nomination. It's disappointing to me that he has to do that, since I usually have a good deal of respect for McCain. But, hey, maybe being president is worth it, huh?

Gatekeeper

[Barnabas]

Is there any senator who voted against the war?

[Arrian]

You mean terrorist appeaser traitors? I'm sure there were a couple.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions.

Hours earlier, the House approved an identical resolution, 296-133.

...

Resolution sharply divides Democrats
The Senate vote sharply divided Democrats, with 29 voting for the measure and 21 against. All Republicans except Sen. Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island voted for passage.

...

Sen. Robert Byrd, D-West Virginia, attempted Thursday to mount a filibuster against the resolution but was cut off on a 75 to 25 vote.

Byrd had argued the resolution amounted to a "blank check" for the White House.

Sen. Bob Graham of Florida was one of 21 Senate Democrats voting against the resolution.

"This is the Tonkin Gulf resolution all over again," Byrd said. "Let us stop, look and listen. Let us not give this president or any president unchecked power. Remember the Constitution."

The list of the nay votes:

Daniel Akaka (D-HI)
Jeff Bingaman (D-NM)
Barbara Boxer (D-CA)
Robert Byrd (D-WV)
Lincoln Chafee (R-RI)
Kent Conrad (D-ND)
Jon Corzine (D-NJ)
Mark Dayton (D-MN)
Richard Durbin (D-IL)
Russell Feingold (D-WI)
Robert Graham (D-FL)
Daniel Inouye (D-HI)
James Jeffords (I-VT)
Edward Kennedy (D-MA)
Patrick Leahy (D-VT)
Carl Levin (D-MI)
Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)
Patty Murray (D-WA)
Jack Reed (D-RI)
Paul Sarbanes (D-MD)
Debbie Stabenow (D-MI)
Paul Wellstone (D-MN)
Ron Wyden (D-OR)

-Arrian

[Gatekeeper]

Wow, Arrian, talk about a "blast from the past." Oh, how soon we forget ...

[Arrian]

Some quotes from the naysayers:

Daniel Akaka (D-HI)

"Great uncertainty surrounds the President's post-war strategy. Remember the day the war ends, Iraq becomes our responsibility, our problem. The United States lacks strategic planning for a post-conflict situation. Retired General George Joulwan recently said that the U.S. needs 'to organize for the peace' and design now a strategy with 'clear goals, milestones, objectives.' Our objectives in Iraq have not yet been made clear: is it our goal to occupy Baghdad and if so, for how long? A rush to battle without a strategy to win the peace is folly.

"I support action by the United Nations in the form of a resolution calling for unconditional and unfettered inspections in Iraq. Only after we exhaust all of our alternative means should we engage in the use of force, and before then, the President must ensure we have a strategy and plans in place for winning the war and building the peace."

Kent Conrad (D-ND)

"Before we ask young men and women to put themselves in harm's way, I must be convinced that we have exhausted every other possibility, pursued every other avenue. For me, and I believe for the people I represent, war must be the last resort. Saddam has not directly threatened his neighbors since the Gulf War. And a recent threat assessment from the Central Intelligence Agency concludes that Iraq is not likely to initiate a chemical or biological attack on the United States.

"Yet the President is contemplating a pre-emptive invasion of Iraq with the goal of ousting Saddam Hussein and installing a new regime. Never before in the history of this nation has the Congress voted to authorize a preemptive attack on a country that has not first attacked us or our allies. In my judgment, an invasion of Iraq at this time would make the United States less secure rather than more secure. It would make a dangerous world even more dangerous."

Mark Dayton (D-MN)

"There appears to be no imminent threat to the United States from Iraq. If there were, the Bush Administration could not have decided last summer to delay this unveiling until September because, in the words of White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card, Jr., 'from a marketing point of view, you don't bring out new products in August.'

"Because Iraq's threat is not immediate, and because U.N. diplomatic efforts are just under way, I believe it is unwise and unnecessary for Congress to vote now on a future use of military force. So why is Congress rushing to judgment at this time? It is for political advantage in the upcoming election, rather than diplomatic or military necessity."


Richard Durbin (D-IL)

"Historically, we have said it is not enough to say you have a weapon that can hurt us. Think of 50 years of cold war when the Soviet Union had weapons poised and pointed at us. It is not enough that you just have weapons. We will watch to see if you make any effort toward hurting anyone in the United States, any of our citizens or our territory.

"It was a bright-line difference in our foreign policy which we drew and an important difference in our foreign policy. It distinguished us from aggressor nations. It said that we are a defensive nation. We do not strike out at you simply because you have a weapon if you are not menacing or threatening to us. Has September 11, 2001, changed that so dramatically?"

Russell Feingold (D-WI)

"Both in terms of the justifications for an invasion and in terms of the mission and the plan for the invasion, Mr. President, the Administration's arguments just don't add up. They don't add up to a coherent basis for a new major war in the middle of our current challenging fight against the terrorism of al Qaeda and related organizations. Therefore, I cannot support the resolution for the use of force before us.

"I am increasingly troubled by the seemingly shifting justifications for an invasion at this time. My colleagues, I'm not suggesting there has to be only one justification for such a dramatic action. But when the Administration moves back and forth from one argument to another, I think it undercuts the credibility of the case and the belief in its urgency. I believe that this practice of shifting justifications has much to do with the troubling phenomenon of many Americans questioning the Administration's motives in insisting on action at this particular time."

James Jeffords (I-VT)

"I am very disturbed by President Bush's determination that the threat from Iraq is so severe and so immediate that we must rush to a military solution. I do not see it that way. I have been briefed several times by Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, CIA Director Tenet and other top Administration officials. I have discussed this issue with the President. I have heard nothing that convinces me that an immediate preemptive military strike is necessary or that it would further our interests in the long term.

"We must ensure that any action we take against Iraq does not come at the expense of the health and strength of our nation, or the stability of the international order upon which our economic security depends. Just think of what progress we could make on non-proliferation if we were to put one fraction of the cost of a war against Saddam Hussein into efforts to prevent the emergence of the next nuclear, chemical or biological threat. Strong efforts at strengthening international non-proliferation regimes would truly enhance our nation's future security."

Edward Kennedy (D-MA)

"It is wrong for Congress to declare war against Iraq now before we have exhausted the alternatives. And it is wrong to divert our attention now from the greater and more immediate threat of Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda terrorism. We cannot go it alone on Iraq and expect our allies to support us. We cannot go it alone and expect the world to stand with us in the urgent and ongoing war against terrorism and Al Qaeda."

Patrick Leahy (D-VT)

"This resolution, like others before it, does not declare anything. It tells the President: Why don't you decide; we are not going to. This resolution, when you get through the pages of whereas clauses, is nothing more than a blank check. The President can decide when to use military force, how to use it, and for how long. This Vermonter does not sign blank checks.

"We have heard a lot of bellicose rhetoric, but what are the facts? I am not asking for 100 percent proof, but the administration is asking Congress to make a decision to go to war based on conflicting statements, angry assertions, and assumption based on speculation. This is not the way a great nation goes to war."

"The key words in the resolution we are considering today are remarkably similar to the infamous [Gulf of Tonkin] resolution of 38 years ago which so many Senators and so many millions of Americans came to regret. Let us not make that mistake again. Let us not pass a Tonkin Gulf resolution. Let us not set the history of our great country this way. Let us not make the mistake we made once before."

Carl Levin (D-MI)

"The vote we take today may have significant consequences for our children and our grandchildren. I believe our security is enhanced when we seek to enhance the authority and credibility of the United Nations and when, if military force is required, it is done with support of the world community."

Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)

"America cannot face this situation alone. The support and cooperation of allies would enable us to share the risks and costs. We need international legitimacy, international support, and international manpower. I also worry that unilateral action could undermine the war on terrorism. Some special forces have already been withdrawn in the efforts to hunt al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The focus of our top military and civilian leaders could shift away from Bin Laden and al Qaeda."

Jack Reed (D-RI)

"Acting alone will increase the risk to our forces and to our allies in the region. Acting alone will increase the burden that we must bear to restore stability in the region. Acting alone will invite the criticism and animosity of many throughout the world who will mistakenly dismiss our efforts as entirely self-serving. Acting alone could seriously undermine the structure of collective security that the United States has labored for decades to make effective. Acting alone today against the palpable evil of Saddam may set us on a course, charted by the newly announced doctrine of preemption, that will carry us beyond the limits of our power and our wisdom."

Debbie Stabenow (D-MI)

"If we do this right, Mr. President, we will truly make the world safer for our families. If we choose the wrong approach, I am deeply concerned that we will start down a road that could ultimately create a more unstable and dangerous world for our children and our grandchildren. There is no doubt that we can defeat Saddam Hussein in battle. The test of our strength is not in our ability to marshal our military forces, but our willingness to adhere to that which has made us great.

"We are a strong and powerful nation, made that way by our willingness to go the extra mile in the name of liberty and peace. The time is now for us to work together in the name of the American people and get it right."

Ron Wyden (D-OR)

"I am not convinced that Saddam Hussein currently poses a clear and present threat to the domestic security of our nation. While my service on the Senate Intelligence Committee has left me convinced of Iraq's support of terrorism, suspicious of its ties to al Qaeda, I have seen no evidence, acts, or involvement in the planning or execution of the vicious attacks of 9/11."

[Ninot]

Debbie Stabenow should run for president.

I wish John Kerry would shutup. He's really bad at this politics thing.

[Barnabas]

Shouldnt they (the senators who voted against the war) have a lot of political power, as in: I was right all the time regarding the war!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Perhaps because that is complete horse****. The volunteer military of today is anything but the victim of screwed up life chocies. They by and large are better educated and better read than the vast majority of citizens.

Then again, like everywhere else in life, there are hierarchies and there are hierarchies. Not a lot of the "best and brightest" volunteers opt for becoming 11-Mikes or 11-Bravos.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I hand you a compliment and there you go with the self deprication thing.

[Arrian]

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I hand you a compliment and there you go with the self deprication thing.

I said "not a lot" Life as an 11-Bravo can be quite... "interesting" if you have a 3-digit IQ.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Perhaps because that is complete horse****. The volunteer military of today is anything but the victim of screwed up life chocies. They by and large are better educated and better read than the vast majority of citizens. To victimize them protrays them as useless tools when they are anything but.

The vast majority of citizenry is retarded. That doesn't change the fact that the top end is less likely to go to the military than ever before.

But as I said, the composition of the army isn't important, it's the likelyhood that the really smart people are willing to serve vs. the likelyhood that that down and out people will serve. The speech was given to college students. A college dropout is still a high school grad and probably eligible for military service. Sadly, a college dropout might still be above average intelligence-wise (what does this tell you about the average ). The point is the guys graduating close to the top of their class at Harvard are staying the heck away from the army. This wasn't always the case.

Given my choice of hiring ex military vs. college grad, I'll take military any day of the week.

Good for you, I wouldn't, but then again I've never had to make that choice, and I'm unlikely to have to make that choice for a long, long time.

Of course if you decide that was his true meaning (how those poor volunteer soliders are victims of bad choices) than I guess you concede the point that Kerry is a lying douche bag when he says he really meant he was talking 'bout Bush. Yeah thats the ticket.

Kerry is well... not an ideal spokesman. Yeah, his this was about Bush remark makes no sense to me. It's like the Democrats have perfectly viable avenues of attack, but instead chose to be retarded. Quite frankly I'm pretty disgusted with them too, though it's hard to be as disgusted with them as with Bush atm.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Wezil
Sorry, I didn't realise Kerry was on the ballot this time out. You're right, what he thinks is crucial.

What you think doesn't count at all, on the other hand. Sava's right.