The God Delusion

[Arrian]

Given what Sloww appears to think "having balls" is about, I'm not sure I'm really offended that he thinks I have no balls for my agnosticism.

Besides, I can, in fact, prove empirically that I have balls. Once again, Sloww is wrong.

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
I started a thread about atheists vs. agnostics long ago and pointed out that at least atheists had the FAITH to believe as they do, while angostics have no balls, afraid to commit either way.

Can't hedge your bet. Sorry.

It takes more balls to admit that you don't know something. People have a tendency to believe what they want to, so not believing anything is the harder thing to do.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Arrian
Given what Sloww appears to think "having balls" is about

Breakfast?

[SlowwHand]

You people sure have solid opinions about everything else.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
You people sure have solid opinions about everything else.

Do you have an opinion about everything?

[SlowwHand]

Well, certainly.

[Arrian]

He's a Texan. There's probably a law against being uncertain.

-Arrian

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
You people sure have solid opinions about everything else.

How about answering my question?

[SlowwHand]

An opinion is nothing more than a decision.
You gather your facts, and decide, on anything. The only automatically wrong decision is no decision.

[Arrian]

Wow. You actually believe that? Or are you just messin' ?

-Arrian

[Richelieu]

If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. [/rush]

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
You people sure have solid opinions about everything else.

For the sake of this argument, I'm going to call myself an atheist (I certainly don't believe in God, but my actual thoughts are a bit more complicated. Also, while I haven't participated at all in this thread so far, I agree with much of the things said by the atheists.)

I hold very strong opinions. I believe I know the fundamental answers to all the great questions concerning life, the universe, and everything. ****, I believe that I even know what the questions are!

I have analyzed, modifed, changed, ridiculed, and downright destroyed every other belief I have ever had about the universe. I have conisdered being Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Unitarian Univesalist, Secular Humanist, and a host of other religions. I have believed in magic and psychic powers. I have wandered out into a rainstorm crying to every god that I could name, hoping one of them would answer. I have read the ideas of countless philosophers, ancient and modern, western and eastern, and everything in between. I have adopted and dropped all of them. Everything I have ever believed in my entire life I have destroyed.

Until now. The philosophy I currently adhere to is the only one that I have not been able to destroy by way of my relentless logic. It is the only one that has withstood years of painstaking critical analysis.

I am confident, thoroughly and nearly unbreakably confident, that what I think to be most true in the universe is true, because I have put my 'faith' to the test.

Can you, Slowwhand, say that you have tested your own beliefs in such a manner?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
An opinion is nothing more than a decision.
You gather your facts, and decide, on anything. The only automatically wrong decision is no decision.

I don't operate that way wrt to everyday life questions, so I don't see why I should do it with regards to philosophy or religion. No decision isn't a wrong decision - it simply is no decision.

[RGBVideo]

impressive

Originally posted by Whaleboy
I'm about half-way through Richard Dawkins' excellent new book, "The God Delusion". If his other books weren't enough to turn any of their readers into strong atheists (which in almost all cases I know of, they are), then this one surely is. In short, it's fantastic.

Knowing what we're like, I'm sure we'll probably end up discussing the contents, but that's not the purpose of this post.

I've come up with a very real moral problem.

Me reading this book is like preaching to the converted. I know all the arguments, many of us have used them here over the years. However, most of my intelligent friends have gone to university so naturally we can't speak as much as we used to, so reading a book like this maybe stops me from feeling so intellectually isolated.

As some of you may know, my family are liberal, but observant Jews. While not fanatical by any stretch of the imagination (my mother is a freelance lecturer on Jewish studies and my grandmother is a lifelong Liberal Democrat), they are observant, and they do believe in God.

Is it right for me to offer "The God Delusion" to them?

I believe that faith is a thoroughly harmful thing, and I believe that my life is richer for ignoring feelings of the supernatural. I concur with the view (if not with 100% certainty) that their lives will be better for expelling belief in God.

I know their views would be that this book will not convince them. This is to be expected... doesn't everyone think their faith is unshakeable? My opinion is that it will convince them; for the time being, assume that to be the case.

Would it be a revelation or a humiliation to realise that you've spent your whole life living a lie, and you're now free of that, or would you feel ashamed and depressed that you've raised your children to believe in a fallacious bronze-age myth, at the expense of common-sense, reason and intellectual rigour?

This is something I can't work out. I've been an atheist since I was 10 years old, and a passionate one since my family forced me into doing a Bar Mitzvah, and an active one since I realised that the mind of small, insignificant me was sufficient to destroy the idea of God. In my mum's case, I don't have four sons (two of whom are grown up) and my career does not depend on my religion.

In my grandmothers case, I've never had my faith as a comfort blanket when I've lost someone, and I've never lived 83 years with the safe certainty that in not-so-long-from-now, I'll die and go to heaven, and be re-united with the love of my life who'se been dead for 28 years now.

On the other hand, they're the kind of people who would feel better if they eventually discovered that they had been lied to, and no-one had told them if they were in posession of that knowledge. My family have never, ever tolerated intellectual dishonesty from me, and I'd like to think of myself as an intellectually honest person as a result.

I suppose one attempt to answer the question would be "if such a book existed that would prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there was a God, would I want to read it". See the above paragraph, of course I would! It would bother me that I've been wrong for so long but superior logic is like a light in the darkness to me. How many times on here have I been shown to be wrong, and adopted the better logic of my opponent? I've lost count.

I'd take it as an intellectual challenge to see if I could refute this book.

But to me, opinions are an intellectual chess match. I'm 21 years old, I've invested absolutely no emotional capital in my views, and I'm free to chop and change them whenever I want.

So that's why I'm asking for advice on what to do.

8.6/10

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Lorizael


For the sake of this argument, I'm going to call myself an atheist (I certainly don't believe in God, but my actual thoughts are a bit more complicated. Also, while I haven't participated at all in this thread so far, I agree with much of the things said by the atheists.)

I hold very strong opinions. I believe I know the fundamental answers to all the great questions concerning life, the universe, and everything. ****, I believe that I even know what the questions are!

I have analyzed, modifed, changed, ridiculed, and downright destroyed every other belief I have ever had about the universe. I have conisdered being Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Unitarian Univesalist, Secular Humanist, and a host of other religions. I have believed in magic and psychic powers. I have wandered out into a rainstorm crying to every god that I could name, hoping one of them would answer. I have read the ideas of countless philosophers, ancient and modern, western and eastern, and everything in between. I have adopted and dropped all of them. Everything I have ever believed in my entire life I have destroyed.

Until now. The philosophy I currently adhere to is the only one that I have not been able to destroy by way of my relentless logic. It is the only one that has withstood years of painstaking critical analysis.

I am confident, thoroughly and nearly unbreakably confident, that what I think to be most true in the universe is true, because I have put my 'faith' to the test.

Can you, Slowwhand, say that you have tested your own beliefs in such a manner?

Have you ever wondered if you were testing for the right thing?

JM