Disturbing Christian material . . . . . . . .

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Btw, you are giving the standard Calvanist position.

And I thought it up all by myself.

Therefore, Me >= Calvin

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by LordShiva
Religion

Science

You speak that way because you are exposed to only one type of religion . It is unfortunate that that one type has either destroyed or altered beyond recognition all other religions .

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Elok
Total freedom...okay, this has always puzzled me, Aneeshm: how the deuce do you explain the caste system?

Under the Indian social system , the original caste of a spiritual seeker is irrelevant . When you join the ascetic or renounciate orders , or simply choose to leave normal life behind to pursue religious goals , your caste ceases to matter - in fact , it ceases to exist .



Caste was primarily a social system , which later happened to become intertwined with the religious traditions of the day and started to derive sanction from them . In the beginning , it was fluid , and a person or group could move up or down the caste ladder . For example , the author of the first and oldest epic of Hinduism ( or of India ) , who was also the inventor of the sholka meter ( which is used throughout classical Sanskrit ) was himself initially an outcaste , who , through his meditation and contemplation of the name of God , achieved the great status he enjoys today .

As late as the 1931 census ( the last census in which caste was enumerated as a separate category ) , the officials recorded that entire groups always strove for higher caste status .The case of the caste "nayis" ( a caste of barbers ) is telling . One census recorded their numbers at X . The next census , they had come down tenfold . This could be explained by the fact that the next time around , they reported themselves as "nyayi brahmins" ( brahmins who carried out the interpretation and execution of law and justice ) , even though they were not , strictly speaking , brahmins . This continued for many censuses ( censii ? ) , and many groups which were earlier from the normal castes ( vaishya or shudra ) apired to the status of the two higher castes , and the census officers , in order to allow them this advancement , duly recorded the new caste they gave .

[aneeshm]

The caste system is often confused with the class system . Society was supposed to be divided into four classes - the intellectual , the administrative and military , the economic , and the "workers" of Civ 3 and 4 - those who did physical work .

Later , with the coming of invaders of all types , social stratification set in , and trade guilds became castes . Each class was divided into a number of castes , and a caste into a number of sub-castes . To give my own example - I come from the intellectual ( the Brahmin ) class . As I am from Maharashtra , my main caste is Maharashtrian Brahmin . My sub-caste is Karhade ( because this sub-caste originally came from the region of Karhad in Maharashtra ) . ( An interesting aside is that we are the minority among Maharashtrian Brahmins . The other two sub-castes constitute 45 % each of the population , while we are around 10 % . )


As for how prevalent the system is today - modernisation and social reform was breaking it down , but the government's stupid decision to institute quotas ( totaling 50 % of all seats ) in educational institutes for the Scheduled Castes , Scheduled Tribes , and Other Backward Castes has meant that in effect , Brahmins and other normal castes like me are discriminated against - we have to compete for only 50 % of the seats , the rest of the 50 % being reserved for SCs , STs , and OBCs , even though if they are totally undeserving , and to not make the qualifying grade , and the caste system has been given a new lease on life . Now the race is to the bottom - each caste ( except the Brahmins , who still have their dignity and self-esteem not to degrade themselves ) trying to prove that they are backward and therefore worthy of being given reservations . Now it is a victory if you can prove that your caste is more degraded than the next one , that it is the most degraded of all .

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by aneeshm
each caste ( except the Brahmins , who still have their dignity and self-esteem not to degrade themselves )

Everything you said indicated that the caste system is still alive and kicking.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by LordShiva




Everything you said indicated that the caste system is still alive and kicking.

I'm sorry if that offends you - the intent of that was to say that Brahmins are the only ones who are not participating in this race to prove themselves the worst , most degraded , most fallen and most backward caste - at least , not to my knowledge . I have not heard of a single Brahmin community trying to prove their degradedness in order to gain benefits . I do admit that I worded it in a rather inflammatory way - but then , that's just my trollish side coming to the fore .

Within the Brahmins themselves , the caste system is gone - we've stopped caring more than two generations ago . I don't care about the caste of the person who I'm talking to , or who I'm dining with , or who I'm doing business with . I'm not even conscious of it . This is the situation prevalent in all the educated upper castes of India . The only people who are caste conscious today are those who might wrest advantages from the state by proving their backwardness .

And in another sense , you're right . I'm being discriminated against when I go looking for admissions to a college - a chap who is many thousand ranks below me gets into a college because he is from a backward caste , whereas I don't . Another instance is that of the Marathas , who control the administrative machinery of the state of Maharashtra , and actively discriminate against Brahminst . Or that of the rector of the hostel of my college - being a Maratha , he gave favoured the Marathas and discriminated against the Brahmins - even though he's supposed to give accomodation on a first-come , first-serve basis , he did not give it to me , but gave it to a person who was from his caste . So don't talk to me about discrimination - I plan to leave the country to escape it anyway .

That is why Brahmins are all slowly leaving the country , and going to Europe and the USA and other parts of the first world . The Brahmins of the southern states , where anti-Bhraminism is the highest - all political parties of the south compete in who will be most anti-Brahmin - have all but fled the country .

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Within the Brahmins themselves , the caste system is gone - we've stopped caring more than two generations ago . I don't care about the caste of the person who I'm talking to , or who I'm dining with , or who I'm doing business with . I'm not even conscious of it .

It's great that you don't care about those things. I don't either (I'm not even sure what caste I am). But to go from that, to saying that none of the upper castes in India care (or to make caste-based generalisations like you've done), is just blissful ignorance.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by LordShiva


It's great that you don't care about those things. I don't either (I'm not even sure what caste I am).

What's your surname ? Tell me that and I'll tell you your caste ( or rather , your class ) . I'll have to Google it - why don't you do that ? Most castes have a very interesting history behind them , usually a positive one . Even the lowest of the castes have some very uplifting legend relating to their founding .

Another question - were you born and brought up in the USA , or have you migrated from India ? I suspect the former - every Indian at least knows his caste .

Originally posted by LordShiva

But to go from that, to saying that none of the upper castes in India care (or to make caste-based generalisations like you've done), is just blissful ignorance.

None of the English-educated , economically successful ( every thing above and including lower-middle-class ) upper classes or castes care about it . At least in Maharashtrian Brahmin households , we tease people from other Brahmin sub-castes with jokes when they're there . That's what the system has been reduced to in Brahmin households - playful jokes . Nobody I know ( even peripherally ) from the upper classes or castes , or even from the vaishya classes cares about caste any longer , nor are they conscious of it .

And I reiterate what I said before - Brahmins are among the few communities who are not participating in this race to the bottom to gain benefits . A number of other communities are also maintaining their dignity - such as the Sikhs ( one of the most hard-working , dynamic , and fun-loving communities in India ) , or the Jains ( they are famous for their excellent academic record and culture of intellectualism everywhere ) . Instead of whining , they have actively worked to make their community an example to emulate .




There is a very great irony in the story of caste . The very Western education that should have ended the dominion of Brahmins on intellectual life actually cemented it . When the British came to India with their English schools , it was thought that that would be the end of caste . What really happened that it was the Brahmins who seized most eagerly on to this education , for two reasons :

a) It offered a quick entry into the new elite , and
b) It fit in perfectly with the Brahminical culture - that of education . A Brahmin was defined by the education he had received . That being the case , it was natural that they would seize on to the new education which offered new benefits and offered higher prestige .

Thus is happened that right uptil its end ( the caste system stands abolished in India , with reverse discrimination in favour of the lower castes by the government taking its place ) , the caste system took care of its own . It gave Brahmins the education push it needed to make them competetive in the new world , in a world where caste did not matter , but in which caste provided them a historic advantege nonetheless . This very rarely happens - an old system usually falls with its elite . The caste system was the only one which allowed , or even prompted , the old elite to take the steps which would allow them to thrive even after the old system's death .

[Jon Miller]

lol

just because I am interested about a freind, what cast is Kolarkar?

JM

[LordShiva]

For the most part, you're right about the educated urban households. Unfortunately, for millions of upper- and lower-caste rural folk, it's painfully not the case.

Born and brought up in India, BTW.

[Jon Miller]

You talk a lot more about caste then LordShiva, aneeshm.

JM

[aneeshm]

A preliminary search reveals Kolarkars to be Deshastha Rigvedi Brahmins ( a Maharashtrian sub-caste , funnily enough ) . Ask the guy if he can speak Marathi .


As for why I spoke about it - because the topic came up . Most people have very wrong notions of the caste system . I try to clear them up . Caste as a problem is now relegated to the smaller villages whom modern education or modernisation in general have not touched . Once that comes in , caste goes out the window .

[Ben Kenobi]

I consider myself a non-denominational Christian who believes in the glorious legacy of Jesus Christ.

And what is that legacy?

Does it have anything to do with salvation?

But I also believe that there is more than be legitimate way to believe in God -- I refuse to believe that Jews and Muslims are condemned to hell.

So there's no real importance then on whether someone believes in Christ as the son of God. What do you make of the parable of the centurian where the centurian says that people obey the men he sends because he knows that they are from him. The same with Christ and God? If Christ is not the son of God, then why are his teachings more important then anyone else's?

I think it's more important for someone to find their own personal, best way to affirm their belief in God, rather than whether or not they practice a Christian religion.

So basically, you'd have us believe that actually practicing out Christ's teachings is meaningless. I'm not sure what you believe that Christians ought to believe, is there anything that all Christians should agree about?

Even though Jews and Muslims do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, they still believe in the same God.

But you just said they don't recognise Christ. If Christ is truly God, then they don't believe in the same God. Either you've just denied the divinity of Christ or you have to reach the conclusion that they do not worship the same God.

I take this further, and even state that people who do not adhere to any institution of any of the three religions, but still have a sincere, personal belief in God are saved from damnation. To me, a spiritual belief in God is more important than adherence to institutional dogma.

Agreed here. The question is an important one. Who must we worship in order to be saved? It seems to me you don't believe that Christ is God at all.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi



But you just said they don't recognise Christ. If Christ is truly God, then they don't believe in the same God. Either you've just denied the divinity of Christ or you have to reach the conclusion that they do not worship the same God.

This is news to me, since I always have been taught that Jews and Muslims believe in the same God that Christians believe in. They just do not see Jesus Christ as having any divine oneness with God.

They believe in the same God, they just don't have the Christian belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

[Jon Miller]

Muslims and Jews worship the same God, they just don't have many of the details right..

JM