Disturbing Christian material . . . . . . . .

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Muslims and Jews worship the same God, they just don't have many of the details right..

JM

As far as the Jews are concerned , yes , the worship the same God . About the Muslims there is some doubt . There is a theory that Allah was descended from the Arabian moon God , instead of the Jewish god .

When Mohammed preached about Allah , he never , in any one of the recorded traditions , even tried to explain who Allah was . He simply assumed that every Arab would just know who he was . This indicates that Allah was probably the primary God of the Arab tribal pantheon . It is impossile to know for certain , as Muslim iconoclasm later destroyed all Arab traditions which were non-Muslim in nature .

Thus , there is a 50-50 split as to which God the Muslims worship - either it is an Arab tribal god , or it is the Jewish god . Take your pick . I myself don't know enough about the debate to meaningfully contribute , so I'll leave it at this point .

[Jon Miller]

I admit I don't know much, but I thought that the Muslims claimed it was the same God, and that Mohammed was heavily influenced by Jews/Christians. I mean, Christ is considered a holy prophet by the Muslims, and Muslims consider Abraham their prophet also.

Remember, God's claim transcends just the historical context (well, historical analysts try to look at it like that, but for those that beleive, God is God..).

JM

[aneeshm]

As I said , I don't know much about the debate , I'm just contributing what I know .

[Robert]

I consider myself a non-denominational Christian who believes in the glorious legacy of Jesus Christ.

But I also believe that there is more than one legitimate way to believe in God

That's a contradiction interminus.
Jesus said: "I'm the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father then through me".

Either you believe Jesus and believe that there's no other way then Jesus. Or you think that Jesus is a fool/idiot/arrogant bastard and you believe that there are multiple ways. Or you believe that what the Bible tells about Jesus isn't what Jesus really was/ really sad. In that case you have no trustworthy material about Jesus at all and would it be foolish to call his legacy glorious.

In fact you're saying: "I'm a huge follower of Marx, I love capitalism!".

[Robert]

I agree with Jon Miller dat "Shouting on the corners of the street" isn't spreading the gospel.
I agree that telling people that they'll "Burn in hell for eternity" isn't really something like spreading the gospel either. (gospel = good news, you can hardly call that good news, can you?)

I'm the first to say that we christians cause a lot of anger and frustrations among non-christians. I'm sorry for that. We are only human and we make the same faults. I hope though that non-christians don't get the idea that non-christians never cause any form of anger or frustration with stupid remarks, etc.

It's a human thing, we do say stupid things. Humans harm others, that's our default status. If you know any human who never harmed anybody, physically or mentally, on purpose or by accident, please tell me who it is. That's why I'm a christian, I believe that we, humans, do harm others, and we need Jesus to get rid of that so we can live in paradise without screwing up the new paradise and spoil it by harming others again.

And if people wonder "If God is that good, why doesn't he let everybody enter paradise?", that's because a good God would never let anybody who's not perfect enter paradise and spoil the paradise (again).
That's like letting a child-raper into a kindergarten.

A christian believes that humans need to be changed so we can be perfect again. Both christians and non-christians need to be changed. That includes me and all other christians. We are no better then you are. We do not believe that we are better either. Every christian who says he's better is not a christian and didn't understand a thing about it. The question is: do you want to be repaired? Or do you believe you can repair yourself? If you believe you can do so, go ahead and repair yourself and live a perfect life without harming anybody, you yourself, others or God. Not on purpose and not by accident. If you are perfect God will let you enter the paradise. I don't believe you can, but you can try.

And if you admit that you're not perfect and can't repair yourself, and you admit that Jesus is perfect and can repair you, save you, then you can enter the paradise. That's what "Believing in Jesus" means. Believe that he's perfect, believe that he can save (fix) you. Believe that God will accept you because he accepts Jesus.

I don't see how this message harms anybody.
I can see how christians (myself included) do a good job by screwing this message up now and then, and again, I'm sorry for that

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
The only way to be saved is through Jesus Christ. I disagree with MrFun there. As said by Paul, people who don't know of Jesus can still be saved through Him.

It is also true that if you beleive in Jesus (what He represents/etc more than just His existence) you will be saved, but this isn't available for everyone (because of us Christians not doing our part to spread the word).

JM
(and yelling to someone on the street corner is not spreading the word, most likely it isn't even heard, based on our presentation of it)

(same with be a Christian or burn in the fires of hell forever, for most people that isn't communication, it isn't telling them about Jesus)

That is very arrogantly presumptious. Why are you right and not some other religion? After all, you all claim to be right in equal doses? Or could it be, just maybe, that none of you are right?

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by CyberShy

I consider myself a non-denominational Christian who believes in the glorious legacy of Jesus Christ.

But I also believe that there is more than one legitimate way to believe in God

That's a contradiction interminus.
Jesus said: "I'm the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father then through me".

Either you believe Jesus and believe that there's no other way then Jesus. Or you think that Jesus is a fool/idiot/arrogant bastard and you believe that there are multiple ways. Or you believe that what the Bible tells about Jesus isn't what Jesus really was/ really sad. In that case you have no trustworthy material about Jesus at all and would it be foolish to call his legacy glorious.

Out of curiosity, do you believe everything in the Bible?

[Elok]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
That is very arrogantly presumptious. Why are you right and not some other religion? After all, you all claim to be right in equal doses? Or could it be, just maybe, that none of you are right?

By being an atheist, you claim that we're all wrong and you're right. How presumptuous and blah blah blah!

[Robert]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


That is very arrogantly presumptious. Why are you right and not some other religion? After all, you all claim to be right in equal doses? Or could it be, just maybe, that none of you are right?

Why is it arrogantly?
Is it *his* faith? Does he own the believe-system?
If I see a car and go home and tell my mother that I saw a red car while my brother says it was blue car. Then my mother (in case she cares) asks me if I'm sure that I'm right and I say that I'm sure, does that make me arrogant? I may be wrong and stupid and silly, true, but it has absolutely nothing to do with arrogance.

Arrogance would be if I'd say that my blue car is the most beautifull car in the world.

Maybe there was no car and both my brother and me were totall wrong. That's possible. We may be idiots. We may be just wrong as well. But arrogant? I totally miss why we are arrogant. We just have view on life, so do you, you have an atheistic view. Does that make you arrogant? No! (unless you claim that your view on life is a better view in itself because you're a better informed more intelligent creature and your opinion is far superior above ours).

[Robert]

BTW, Provost, I think that I've give the above answer about 20 times already to you while you never countered it. I think you'er a poster, not a reader. You just keep on posting the same stuff, no matter if it's ever been countered or not, you don't care, you just post it again.

[Robert]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Out of curiosity, do you believe everything in the Bible?

Define 'everything'.
yes, I do believe everything in the Bible, but I don't believe that 'everything' should be token literall, but I think that nobody believes that.

I think that the Bible is trustworthy as the book that tells us about God's actions and plans with mankind.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


That is very arrogantly presumptious. Why are you right and not some other religion? After all, you all claim to be right in equal doses? Or could it be, just maybe, that none of you are right?

Um, I think I am right, that is obvious? If I didn't think I was right, I would think something else. Or are you just being purposely obtuse?

JM

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Define 'everything'.
yes, I do believe everything in the Bible, but I don't believe that 'everything' should be token literall, but I think that nobody believes that.

I think that the Bible is trustworthy as the book that tells us about God's actions and plans with mankind.

I mean, like all those things that liberals like to point out to religious conservatives, about like stoning adulterers, or only being allowed to take slaves from neighbouring countries, or homosexuality being an abomination, etc. Clearly, there are lots of things in there that, like in any other holy book of any other religion, are quite contrary to what most people believe these days.

Originally posted by CyberShy
Either you believe Jesus and believe that there's no other way then Jesus. Or you think that Jesus is a fool/idiot/arrogant bastard and you believe that there are multiple ways. Or you believe that what the Bible tells about Jesus isn't what Jesus really was/ really sad. In that case you have no trustworthy material about Jesus at all and would it be foolish to call his legacy glorious.

So, is it right only about Jesus, and not about the other stuff? But then, you have no trustworthy material...

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by LordShiva

I mean, like all those things that liberals like to point out to religious conservatives, about like stoning adulterers, or only being allowed to take slaves from neighbouring countries, or homosexuality being an abomination, etc. Clearly, there are lots of things in there that, like in any other holy book of any other religion, are quite contrary to what most people believe these days.

Could you please find me a verse regarding such things in the Vedas ? I've often heard people saying that such things are there in all scriptures , but I've never found anything like that in the Vedas .

Of course , that may be because the Vedas did not try to presribe any laws anyway .

[Jon Miller]

Stoning adulterers is a punishment. It still says that adultery is wrong, and Christians (by and large) still beleive this, it is just that the civic laws, the responses to wrong doing, are different now.

The Bible deals with God, and Man, and God's relationship with Man and Man's relationship with God. Part of that relationship, during a certain period in Jewish history, was a theocracy. Recall that this was around 2000 BC, in a much less civilized time (things would need to be done differently, in order to be part of the world of that time, that is something that always pisses me off about alternate histories that think that some 'ideal' modern state could exist in BC or even 1700 AD, it is just rediculous)

Note that while the Bible allows slavery, in the OT civic laws, masters were instructed to free their slaves after 7 years. Additionally, while the NT tells slaves to obey their masters, it also says that all are equal under God. The Bible does not support slavery of the sort that was in America.. where people were slaves for life based upon the color of their skin.

As for homosexual activity being wrong, there is a bit of argument about it. But even if it is a sin, everybody sins and falls short. David, whose heart was close to God, committed adultery (and killed the husband), which seems to me to be worse than homosexual activity.

The issue is that currently we say that many things are between a person and God, instead of trying to judge (and punish) eachother morally.

Jon Miller