Down with the evil Gas lords II: Kaak's Revenge!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber





In private enterprise, only idiots would make multi-billion dollar investments in an area where the returns are projected to be not good.

Why oh why oh WHY would "some people" make this investment? Why do you think "competitive situations" would cause people to sink billions into an enterprise when other enterprices have a much better chance at a good return

[SIZE=1]I know that you can convince "some people" to purchase the Brooklyn bridge but the level of investment needed for a refinery means that it is out of reach of the eccentric multi-millionares

Who said the projections would be bad? Projections /= actual data.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Oh that one guy who hasn't even built a refinery yet?





Yeah, that guy who's begun the ten year process (the process you claim that is not underway), and is inching closer.

Him.

-=Vel=-

So you want us to take it up the ass why and until when?

[Velociryx]

Who said the projections would be bad? Projections /= actual data.

You did. Read your own post. Here, I'll make it easy for you and quote you below:

I'm not saying the the return on the investment will be good. I'm saying that under competitive situations some people will make that investment.

See...if you're not saying that the returns on the investment would be good.....then you must mean either that they'll be better than good (excellent, great, which is not the implication in this or other posts), or that they will be less than good (poor, bad).

Do you even read what you write?

So you want us to take it up the ass why and until when?

I do? Wow...that's quite a revelation! I simply pointed out the fact that you have not (and apparently cannot) provide any information that absolutely proves that feasibility studies for new refineries aren't already underway in the big oil companies, and we have presented you with evidence of the very thing you say you want, that is, a new refinery, currently going through the LONG process of being constructed.

It takes time, remember.

And it's happening right now.

Get it?

-=Vel=-

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
this is the most ridiculous **** i have ever heard.

QFT

[KrazyHorse]

This is just sad.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Who said the projections would be bad? Projections /= actual data.

You did. Read your own post. Here, I'll make it easy for you and quote you below:

I'm not saying the the return on the investment will be good. I'm saying that under competitive situations some people will make that investment.

See...if you're not saying that the returns on the investment would be good.....then you must mean either that they'll be better than good (excellent, great, which is not the implication in this or other posts), or that they will be less than good (poor, bad).

Do you even read what you write?

I don't know how to help you. You have this tendency to believe what fits into your little world, and avoid believing in simple truths and what people actually say.

So you want us to take it up the ass why and until when?

I do? Wow...that's quite a revelation! I simply pointed out the fact that you have not (and apparently cannot) provide any information that absolutely proves that feasibility studies for new refineries aren't already underway in the big oil companies, and we have presented you with evidence of the very thing you say you want, that is, a new refinery, currently going through the LONG process of being constructed.

It takes time, remember.

And it's happening right now.

Get it?

-=Vel=-

It doesn't matter if they are underway, although Flubber says that they shouldn't be because historic ROR is too low. What matters is that they did not build the refineries to meet demand.

[Velociryx]

I don't know how to help you. You have this tendency to believe what fits into your little world, and avoid believing in simple truths and what people actually say.


Ahhh. So then...you could begin by pointing out what "simple truth" I missed.

This would be most instructive.

It doesn't matter if they are underway, although Flubber says that they shouldn't be because historic ROR is too low. What matters is that they did not build the refineries to meet demand.

So do you, or do you not want more refineries built?

Because you have (earlier) expressed an understanding that it takes a long time to do this.

You have also expressed your doubts that such plans are underway.

You have been given proof that such plans ARE underway.

So.....I'm not clear at this point what your point is.

Do you have one?

Do you know?



-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I don't know how to help you. You have this tendency to believe what fits into your little world, and avoid believing in simple truths and what people actually say.


Ahhh. So then...you could begin by pointing out what "simple truth" I missed.

This would be most instructive.

instructive? maybe. constructive? No. You never get it.

It doesn't matter if they are underway, although Flubber says that they shouldn't be because historic ROR is too low. What matters is that they did not build the refineries to meet demand.

So do you, or do you not want more refineries built?

Because you have (earlier) expressed an understanding that it takes a long time to do this.

You have also expressed your doubts that such plans are underway.

You have been given proof that such plans ARE underway.

So.....I'm not clear at this point what your point is.

Do you have one?

Do you know?



-=Vel=-

I don't know how many plans there are for new refineries. I acknowledge that ONE person (not a major refiner already) is planning to build one. I do know that no new refineries are being built right now. That means that we are not going to have new refineries online anytime soon. So we are at the mercy of imported gas prices for sometime to come. Those import prices could get quite expensive.

This is what I'm sure of. Refining margins are going to stay very high until these refineries are built. That is a long time. But you guys get your shorts all sticky about that, don't you!

[Velociryx]

instructive? maybe. constructive? No. You never get it.

Please tell me how else I was supposed to interpret your post then.

To refresh your memory, this is the post in question (this way, you can't play dumb and act like you don't remember)

I'm not saying the the return on the investment will be good. I'm saying that under competitive situations some people will make that investment.

Go on. Explain it for me. Break it down.



I don't know how many plans there are for new refineries.

Which renders your earlier rants about Big Oil not "doing what was required of them" rather moot, eh? I mean, since you acknowledge that you don't really know?

I acknowledge that ONE person (not a major refiner already) is planning to build one.

Whether or not he's a major refiner is irrelevant. His presence in the market will a) make the market more competitive, and b) increase supply. Both of these are desires you say that you want met. It is being done.

I do know that no new refineries are being built right now.

Before ground can be broken, there's an enormous, long, and complex process that has to be undertaken, and all of that starts with a feasability study (Flubber, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Feasability study = first step. With the recent spike in the margins, I'd be willing to bet my right arm that all the majors are doing feasability studies on new refineries (if they don't already have them sitting on the shelf), and if they see that the 18% returns are more than just a blip on the radar, they'll act on those plans.

If it's not happening fast enough to suit Kidicious, well....I'm pretty sure that the Big Oil companies didn't ask you, and won't lose any sleep if you feel they're not moving quickly enough.

That means that we are not going to have new refineries online anytime soon.

You're right here. It takes time to build them. They JUST became attractive this year (18% return), and the conservative oil companies aren't gonna leap without looking, no matter how much you b*tch and moan. They're gonna wait to get some trend data that shows them something other than negative returns.

If they were your billions on the line, you would do the same.

So we are at the mercy of imported gas prices for sometime to come. Those import prices could get quite expensive.

Gross oversimplification that has almost nothing to do with the issue at hand. If a refinery could be tossed up on the cheap, and over the course of a long weekend, you would be correct. Given the constraits, you're so full of $hit that it's leaking out your ears.

This is what I'm sure of. Refining margins are going to stay very high until these refineries are built. That is a long time.

I agree that this is quite likely, and also that it is no fault of Big Oil. Read above.


But you guys get your shorts all sticky about that, don't you!

Not at all. I have to buy gas too, or did you think they were just picking on poor widdle kidicous?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

The rest of your post is complete crap. I've learned not to continue to teach the same people, the same basic economic concepts over and over here, when they never get it.

Originally posted by Velociryx
I agree that this is quite likely, and also that it is no fault of Big Oil. Read above.

I've already stated that I don't care who's fault it is. If they've managed to create this situation then the've been good business men. If they've just fallen on it on accident then they are lucky. I don't care it's not relevent. Stop bringing it up. You need to focus on what is relevent or the discussion is over as far as I'm concerned.

But you guys get your shorts all sticky about that, don't you!

Not at all. I have to buy gas too, or did you think they were just picking on poor widdle kidicous?

-=Vel=-

You're not picking on me. You're just making yourself look stupid again. It doesn't seem to matter that you buy gas like the rest of us. You are so far into this living vicariously through the megarich that you get turned on when they gouge the common fella even if it's you. It severly compromises your ability to see things clearly. Most people today see plainly the situation. Why do you think even Dubya is proposing legislation to do something about it?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

and dubya wont find anything.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
and dubya wont find anything.

You don't know that for sure. The found something on Enron.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious

It doesn't matter if they are underway, although Flubber says that they shouldn't be because historic ROR is too low. What matters is that they did not build the refineries to meet demand.

Thats not quite right. What Flubber actually says is that Projected ROR would be the crucial factor as well as the risk profile (this is essentially a calculation of the likelihood of various returns).

Historic ROR is the past but can explain why there were no refineries built for the last several years. It would also have to be a major factor in assessing the future. To project RORs way different than the past pattern would require a fairly solid analysis of why the market is so fundamentally different than it used to be

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
and dubya wont find anything.

I think they are with the WMDs.

[Kidlicious]

Flubber,

The projected ROR and the risk analysis are also different for each proposed project. Shouldn't they have found at least some profitable projects.