Down with the evil Gas lords II: Kaak's Revenge!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber


Well since you think it, it must be so . Obviously they have used this "pricing power" to great advantage over the years-- I mean they are earning returns on billions that rival those of a Quickee Mart

The're using it right now. That's a fact evident by the refining margins.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Talking to a wall is more productive than talking to Kid. At least the wall won't say utterly stupid things. The wall isn't going to be saying since there is no new refineries now, there isn't a competitive market in refining .

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I don't know what their portfolio looks like, and either do you. Companies do actually expand regardless of the fact that they already have a portfolio allocation.

I never said I did but you are the one saying that they should chase any opportunity that is profitable. I was explaining why a given company might not. Companies will NOT go beyond limits they set. I have seen projects crater because the Company that had 60% wanted to have less and couldn't find anyone to buy the other 10-20% it wanted to divest


Add to those reasons simple inertia. With no refineries built in decades, they wouldn't have a staff of refinery project folks around at HQ . When something hasn't been done for so very long, I'm betting that several of the oil companies haven't seriously looked at this for years. Its not like the refinery building report would even be on anyones agenda

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Talking to a wall is more productive than talking to Kid. At least the wall won't say utterly stupid things. The wall isn't going to be saying since there is no new refineries now, there isn't a competitive market in refining .

That's fine Imran. Who cares, just ignore the facts.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kidicious
That's fine Imran. Who cares, just ignore the facts.

Exactly... that seems to be your tactic since the beginning. The facts don't matter, only Kid's opinions. Which is the wall is a better debate partner.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Talking to a wall is more productive than talking to Kid. At least the wall won't say utterly stupid things. The wall isn't going to be saying since there is no new refineries now, there isn't a competitive market in refining .

You are right-- He just keeps repeating that since returns have actually gotten to a decent level, that must mean an evil monopoly is at work. Its like a mantra "They have pricing power, they have pricing power" without ever explaining how it was acquired and why they don't use it to get a serious rate of return

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
I never said I did but you are the one saying that they should chase any opportunity that is profitable. I was explaining why a given company might not. Companies will NOT go beyond limits they set. I have seen projects crater because the Company that had 60% wanted to have less and couldn't find anyone to buy the other 10-20% it wanted to divest


Add to those reasons simple inertia. With no refineries built in decades, they wouldn't have a staff of refinery project folks around at HQ . When something hasn't been done for so very long, I'm betting that several of the oil companies haven't seriously looked at this for years. Its not like the refinery building report would even be on anyones agenda

I think we have some sort of communication problem, which is often the case.

I'm saying that they will not build refineries because it will not be profitable for them to do so. At the same time I'm saying that the market is not competitive. It doesn't matter why refiners will not expand and become more competitive with each other. The only thing that is relevent is that they won't.

[Flubber]

Anyway I'm done. IN a twist of irony I am headed over to see a headhunter who has the "offer package" from a petroleum producing company where I will soon be working ( I know I will accept)

Stock options mmmmmmmmmmm

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Exactly... that seems to be your tactic since the beginning. The facts don't matter, only Kid's opinions. Which is the wall is a better debate partner.

The fact is that they haven't built refineries.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber



You are right-- He just keeps repeating that since returns have actually gotten to a decent level, that must mean an evil monopoly is at work. Its like a mantra "They have pricing power, they have pricing power" without ever explaining how it was acquired and why they don't use it to get a serious rate of return

Returns are at record levels. That's the facts.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


The fact is that they haven't built refineries.

Everyone accepts that self-evident fact that no refineries were built

BUT I wonder who the "they" is that was supposed to build more. Last I checked it was a capitalist country so I don't know why existing refineries bear any more blame for the lack of new refineries than business generally-- or government for that matter

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Flubber
You are right-- He just keeps repeating that since returns have actually gotten to a decent level, that must mean an evil monopoly is at work. Its like a mantra "They have pricing power, they have pricing power" without ever explaining how it was acquired and why they don't use it to get a serious rate of return

Yep, not even paying attention to the article I posted where it has been 6 years since that Arizona refinery started plans (which means they used ROR back then to make their decision) and they STILL haven't hit dirt on it yet. It's like he expects them to be out there in 2 days with all the approvals in hand. It's utter madness... displays a thorough lack of a grip on reality, or at the very least, the hoops one has to go through to build such a thing.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Yep, not even paying attention to the article I posted where it has been 6 years since that Arizona refinery started plans (which means they used ROR back then to make their decision) and they STILL haven't hit dirt on it yet. It's like he expects them to be out there in 2 days with all the approvals in hand. It's utter madness... displays a thorough lack of a grip on reality, or at the very least, the hoops one has to go through to build such a thing.

yup

I understand that an environmental fast-track would still take something like 2 years ( and that would be with no one really strenuously objecting

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber



Everyone accepts that self-evident fact that no refineries were built

BUT I wonder who the "they" is that was supposed to build more. Last I checked it was a capitalist country so I don't know why existing refineries bear any more blame for the lack of new refineries than business generally-- or government for that matter

Why are you continuing on with this garbage and accusing me of ignoring facts.

The facts are that margins are at record highs, demand for gas is projected to increase 35% by 2025, and no new refineries are being built. The obvious conclusion is that the market is not competitive, but you keep going back to 1990 margins and getting into this kind of "should" garbage.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Yep, not even paying attention to the article I posted where it has been 6 years since that Arizona refinery started plans (which means they used ROR back then to make their decision) and they STILL haven't hit dirt on it yet. It's like he expects them to be out there in 2 days with all the approvals in hand. It's utter madness... displays a thorough lack of a grip on reality, or at the very least, the hoops one has to go through to build such a thing.

Do you beleive that refineries can not be built or are you just bringing in more irrelevent material. Yes there are things you need to do to build a refinery. That doesn't mean that you can't build one.