Down with the evil Gas lords II: Kaak's Revenge!

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Do you beleive that refineries can not be built or are you just bringing in more irrelevent material. Yes there are things you need to do to build a refinery. That doesn't mean that you can't build one.

err his point is very clearly that someone is trying and has been trying since long before returns have gotten reasonable ( for that one year)

and actually since no one has built a "from-scratch" refinery in what, 29? years, nobody really has a good handle on how long the regulatory/environmental process will actually take

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber


err his point is very clearly that someone is trying and has been trying since long before returns have gotten reasonable ( for that one year)

and actually since no one has built a "from-scratch" refinery in what, 29? years, nobody rally has a good handle on how long the regulatory/environmental process will actually take

Yes someone is trying, but there is no proof that Exxon, Valero, Shell etc are. I'm not suprized that someone is trying to build a refinery. I want to know if the big refiners are building refineries.

[Velociryx]

I want to know if the big refiners are building refineries.



I want to know why you feel they should be obligated to? I mean, look at the facts, man (you're all about "the revolution," so give it a whirl....looking at the facts should be a "revolutionary" concept for you ), the big oil companies have just come off of a period with scant (and sometimes negative) returns on refineries, but on the basis of one good year, you want them to drop billions?

What have you been smoking, and can you send me some?

-=Vel=-

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
increase in the US state: 57.7%
increase in the euro country: 31.6%

Not to mention the fact that the value of the respective currencies change.

I kinda thought numbers like this would show up.

My interpretation of these numbers is that about half the rise in prices in the U.S. is due to rising oil costs.
IIRC, the Euro has been rising vis-a-vis the dollar, so this explains some of the difference, plus refinerery levels are down in the U.S. due to Katrina etc.

But IMHO, this still leaves a pretty big chunk of the increase unexplained. While I don't think there was any explicit agreement to fix prices, I believe a lack of competition in the area of refining has permitted the oil companies to act in concert to raise prices to an artificially high level.

BTW: Imran's right when he point to a process in which refinery licensing is being strangled in red tape. Although governments are charged with the responsibilty for protecting the environment from harm, it also has the responsiblity to provide the least cumbersome process possible to obtain licenses while still protecting the environment. A 6-year+ process is inexcusable.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Yes someone is trying, but there is no proof that Exxon, Valero, Shell etc are. I'm not suprized that someone is trying to build a refinery. I want to know if the big refiners are building refineries.

Why ? Is there some rule that says that if you build a refinery you are then responsible to meet future refinery needs? If they like their refinery business "as-is", why shouldn't someone else build one?

I again challenge you to build one kid? After all its a risk free slam dunk right? so the banks should line up to finance it

[GhengisFarb™]

The last I heard, when Conoco and Kerr-McGee (neither of which have any interest in this anymore) were looking at building a new refinery they determined it would take an estimated 10 years to complete the required EPA paperwork and environmental studies before they could even break ground on the construction.

There conclusion was there was no guarantee on the profitibility and investment of a refinery that wouldn't be able to produce product for over a decade.

[KrazyHorse]

But IMHO, this still leaves a pretty big chunk of the increase unexplained. While I don't think there was any explicit agreement to fix prices, I believe a lack of competition in the area of refining has permitted the oil companies to act in concert to raise prices to an artificially high level.

Errr...you missed my point. Which is that if excise taxes are charged on volume sales, the unit price of gasoline in the region with the higher excise taxes will see a lower percentage increase, all else being equal.

Refined products can be transported. Major imbalances would make this trade very profitable, which woul tend to balance prices. The fact the imports of refined products account for a significant, yet no overwhelming percentage of US consumption itself indicates the existence of a global market which is not too far out of balance.

[Imran Siddiqui]

[q=GhengisFarb]The last I heard, when Conoco and Kerr-McGee (neither of which have any interest in this anymore) were looking at building a new refinery they determined it would take an estimated 10 years to complete the required EPA paperwork and environmental studies before they could even break ground on the construction.[/q]

Jesus! 10 years just for the paperwork?!

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Errr...you missed my point. Which is that if excise taxes are charged on volume sales, the unit price of gasoline in the region with the higher excise taxes will see a lower percentage increase, all else being equal.

Yes, I see. Your point is that the U.S. only seems to be increasing at a greater rate because its taxes on gasoline are so low.

On the other hand, yesterday I saw an oil company guy justifying the oil companies' high profits arguing that tax revenues are greater than the companies' profits because U.S. taxes are so high.

Refined products can be transported. Major imbalances would make this trade very profitable, which woul tend to balance prices.

All European refineries would need was a distribution system to deliver their product to the retailers and a network of retailers to deliver their product to.

Jesus! 10 years just for the paperwork?!

Agreed, anything over six months is rediculous, and even six months is pushing it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber



Why ? Is there some rule that says that if you build a refinery you are then responsible to meet future refinery needs? If they like their refinery business "as-is", why shouldn't someone else build one?

I again challenge you to build one kid? After all its a risk free slam dunk right? so the banks should line up to finance it

Oh Flubber, you wouldn't get it if it hit you in the face.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
On the other hand, yesterday I saw an oil company guy justifying the oil companies' high profits arguing that tax revenues are greater than the companies' profits because U.S. taxes are so high

The taxes may be high relative to the profit margins of the companies, but low relative to taxes in other areas.

All European refineries would need was a distribution system to deliver their product to the retailers and a network of retailers to deliver their product to.

a) They're called "ships". If gas was 50 cents a gallon cheaper in Europe than in the US (not end-user, so taxes not a factor) you can bet your ass that those ships would be tanking up in the Med or on the Atlantic coast like no ****ing tomorrow.

b) Why the **** would they need a ****ing network of retailers? In your world does every petro-company have to be completely ****ing vertically integrated? Who the **** do you think independent retailers buy from? Why is there a spot market in gas at all major harbours? Why are there pipelines at all major harbours?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Oh Flubber, you wouldn't get it if it hit you in the face.

I get it
you are as flip as usual with no analysis or logic. You have 2 or 3 fundamental illogical beliefs that you pretty much chant back as a reply even when it is totally out of touch with real life practice and experience.


But please continue with your monoplistic conspiracy theories . I guess the idea that a very very competitive market drove out the less efficient refiners is just too freaking simple a concept.

I guess the idea that refineries take a LONG time to run through regulatiory hoops and build just doesn't register.

I guess the idea that ONE year of returns at 18% is not some level of super-profitability when preceeded by 15 years of marginal profitability (including a year with a negative return just two years ago) is just foreign to you

Everything in the refinery industry is very simply and logically explained without resort to monopolistic conspiracy theories.

The question is not really why margins are so "high" today but instead how the heck did they stay so very very low for so long?

[Imran Siddiqui]

They're called "ships".

[Kaak]

and so it begins:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA042606.01A.gas_boycott.a7f4954.html

[Imran Siddiqui]

From the article:

The resolution perplexed Leticia Muñoz, whose family owns the three Bee County Pantry Convenience Stores that sell Exxon Mobil fuel.

"I don't know what they are trying to accomplish," she said. "It's not going to make a difference on the cost of fuel, but it is a direct impact on us. It's ridiculous. There's nothing we can do about (gas prices)."

Muñoz said dropping the price of gas at the family's stores from $2.79, as it was Tuesday, to $1.30 would leave them bankrupt.

Hey, who cares about small business anyway... besides, she sounds like a Mexican. She must be stealing American money