USFTA - United States Federal Travel Agency

[Velociryx]

Vel, it doesn't matter why you tell it.

Sure it does. It speaks to intent, which is pivotal to proving or disproving if Kaak is, in fact, all the things he has been called. I mean, if we have already established that the act of posting something found on the 'net (a humor piece, a bit of Marx, a Hitler speech) does not make you a bigot, a fascist, or a marxist, then what other criterion can we use?

It is a political act regardless of what your motives may or may not have been.

Untrue. No moreso than the Python skit "Violence inherent in the system" would be a political act, if posted here. Not everything is political (even humor with political basis). Again, if I randomly post a Hitler speech, it's not a political act. You can read that into it, sure, but then, that speaks to your perception, and not to the act itself.

That's why I don't think Kaak is a racist

Good. I don't either. But we are in the minority on this thread.

I simply think he doesn't grasp the meaning of what he posted or the fact that it was intensely political.


Oh, I think he understood that the humor had a political basis, but whether he did or did not, that STILL doesn't make him any of the things he has been called here. Hate the piece, not the poster....except that's not what's been happening.

Humor may be told "just to be funny," but it is its real commentary on society that makes it that way. And the worst that can be said in that regard is most certainly not "I didn't think it was funny."


Sure it is, especially in light of the fact that Kaak made no claims about his own socio-political beliefs and if they did, or did not align with the humor piece. Everyone assumed that they did, but again....that was pure speculation and perception. And from that speculation, many here assumed that since Kaak posted it, he must agree with it, which means that since the piece was bigoted (and exaggerated, in the tradition of much humor) that those exaggerated beliefs must be Kaak's own. (example: Robin Williams did a HYSTERICAL skit about him fvcking a gorilla...I thought I was gonna pull something, I was laughing so hard....but if I post that here, it does not mean that I support the idea of having sex with animals, and yet, this is EXACTLY the sort of reception that Kaak recieved. "oh...he thought it was funny, so he must believe it!" Not true. SELDOM true, in fact.)

That's a stretch, and then some.

So yes....you can either acknowledge that you did or did not like the piece...did or did not find it funny. You can also go into excruciating detail about WHY or why not (it's bigoted, stereotypical, in poor taste, etc)....but all of this is just supporting evidence for the funny/not funny thing.

To remove the political implications from humor or any other kind of writing, literature, or communication - when they most certainly do exist - is to do a grave disservice to both literature and your fellow citizens. It is to take the urgency and meaning out of writing.

Very little comedy has urgent or serious meaning. In fact, since exaggeration and stereotypes are so common IN humor, to take them as serious is to live....somewhere besides the real world, I would think. Other types of writing, sure. Comedy....VERY rarely, even when it's socially relevant and pulled from today's headlines.

My opinion makes Kaak nothing. If Kaak is a xenophobe, a coward, a bigot, or a racist, he is so of his own design. And, as far as I am aware, I have only "thrusted" at the racism of the jokes, not the racism of the poster.


Again, I agree, and again, we're in the minority. And since that is the case, then clearly my earlier rant was not aimed at you.....so why you felt the need to address it...I'm not precisely sure. But that's cool too.

Sleep well!

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
To address the "racism" charges others have made, the more significant problem, perhaps, is with the tone of the post. By portraying a fictional American "illegal" in Mexico as essentially a greedy SOB who enjoys flaunting laws and stealing from the government, it is saying quite boldly that Mexicans in America do likewise. That's the point of the satire.

Sayz you. The point of the comedic post was not so much a stab at the Mexican immigrants or stereotypes thereof but the nonsensical US policies as contrasted with Mexican policies.

I do find it bigoted to propose that the illegal immigrants who come here are "thieves" acting out of malicious intent. It hearily reinforces the stereotype of Mexicans as lazy bums that are only in America because they're too lethargic to do work in Mexico. I'm not calling any specific person a racist, but the post does reinforce racist stereotypes, and when such a post is posted without comment, people will tend to assume that the poster is in tacit agreement with it, or at least sufficiently ignorant of its inherent racism to merit criticism.

Bingo... and that is also why KH has kicked everyone else's ass on this thread. To fail to realize the above is to be purposely thickheaded.

Amazingly those who find some other purpose in the post other than to denigrate Mexicans are held up as poster children racists whilst those who immediately jump to the nastiest stereotypes that their little minds can dredge up are held up as paragon crusaders.

I find that line of thinking not only flawed but in of itself prejudicial and quite honestly patronizingly bigotted on a subconscious level.

[Velociryx]

Exactly. Becoming what you say you despise.

Well said, Og!

-=Vel=-

[Tuberski]

Nobody even commented on my quotes.

Which came from the well known Mexican hater, Carlos Mencia.

According to Ted Strike et al, Carlos Mencia is a racist even against Mexicans.

He tells jokes to get a laugh, and yes, as social commentary.

He pokes holes in the exact thinking of the Striker Clan.

Political Correctness was designed to make people more aware of other peoples, cultures and ideas.

But people like the ultra cool Californian Striker use it as a bludgeon to denigrate people they don't agree with.

That's pretty sad.

btw, Ted, I lived in San Diego for 4 years, it's just as "bad" as Texas is when it comes to illegal immigrants.

ACK!

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Tuberski

But people like the ultra cool Californian Striker use it as a bludgeon to denigrate people they don't agree with.

When using a weapon one must first be capable of employing it without hitting yourself in the face.

Tubes - just thought I would give you a pity response to your latest posting

[Velociryx]

Sorry Tubes...I wasn't sure where the quotes came from, so I left 'em alone.

But I'm surprised that you didn't get branded as a racist too! Look out! The PC Police Cometh....

-=Vel=-

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Sure it does. It speaks to intent, which is pivotal to proving or disproving if Kaak is, in fact, all the things he has been called. I mean, if we have already established that the act of posting something found on the 'net (a humor piece, a bit of Marx, a Hitler speech) does not make you a bigot, a fascist, or a marxist, then what other criterion can we use?

When I say it doesn't matter, I mean insofar as it is a political act. Whether you want it to be a political act or not does not change what it is. It might change the nature of the political act, as posting agitprop and agreeing with it is different from doing something else, but it does not change the basic existence of political import.

Untrue. No moreso than the Python skit "Violence inherent in the system" would be a political act, if posted here. Not everything is political (even humor with political basis). Again, if I randomly post a Hitler speech, it's not a political act. You can read that into it, sure, but then, that speaks to your perception, and not to the act itself.

On the contrary. Everything is political. Aristotle called it the "philosophy of human affairs," which covers everything. Because all actions are done in a political context, all commentary on those actions, serious or not, has potential political import.

Oh, I think he understood that the humor had a political basis, but whether he did or did not, that STILL doesn't make him any of the things he has been called here. Hate the piece, not the poster....except that's not what's been happening.

Meh. That's not really my concern. I don't speak for the "he's a racist" people any more than you do.

Very little comedy has urgent or serious meaning. In fact, since exaggeration and stereotypes are so common IN humor, to take them as serious is to live....somewhere besides the real world, I would think. Other types of writing, sure. Comedy....VERY rarely, even when it's socially relevant and pulled from today's headlines.

There you go with the "serious" thing again. I never said serious - I said meaning, and if you don't think comedy has meaning you've got another thing coming. Comedy must have meaning to be funny, and it must be urgent to be relevant, and comedy requires relevancy (or else it's not funny).

Nobody even commented on my quotes.

I didn't think they were directed to me, but if so, I don't see the relevance of them. Whatever Carlos Mencia says could very well be racist; that doesn't make him a racist, but it does constitute political commentary.

Sayz you. The point of the comedic post was not so much a stab at the Mexican immigrants or stereotypes thereof but the nonsensical US policies as contrasted with Mexican policies.

A lot of very famous people have written very racist books, the point of which was not to be "racist." One needs not have racism as one's primary point to write literature, or jokes, that are essentially racist.

Amazingly those who find some other purpose in the post other than to denigrate Mexicans are held up as poster children racists whilst those who immediately jump to the nastiest stereotypes that their little minds can dredge up are held up as paragon crusaders.

Are you seriously suggesting that noting racism is racist because people who point out racism are "jumping to nasty stereotypes?" Better to just sweep racism under the rug, is it? Sh*t, if everyone believed your drivel my lawn would be mowed by unpaid darkies right now. Racism exists, and to call people who recognize it racist just because they dare to broach the topic is not just wrong, it's vile.

[Velociryx]

Everything is political

Cyclo...if "everything is political" then the very TERM becomes meaningless....you realize that, yes?

Meh. That's not really my concern. I don't speak for the "he's a racist" people any more than you do.


Oh, believe me...I'm not speaking for them either, but it IS a concern. It was my primary concern when I chimed in to this "discussion." If you're not concerned about it.....why did you bother replying to my post tho?

There you go with the "serious" thing again. I never said serious - I said meaning, and if you don't think comedy has meaning you've got another thing coming. Comedy must have meaning to be funny, and it must be urgent to be relevant, and comedy requires relevancy (or else it's not funny).


It's an important distinction, because the people here who have responded with the name-calling to the original poster (Kaak) TOOK serious meaning from it (quite inappropriately). Doesn't matter that you didn't...you already said you didn't call him names.

A lot of very famous people have written very racist books, the point of which was not to be "racist." One needs not have racism as one's primary point to write literature, or jokes, that are essentially racist.


Agreed. And you already said you didn't call him a racist, so again, not directed at you. What we're still trying to figure out is how the leap can be made from someone posting a thing that contains racist, bigoted, or stereotypical elements, exaggerated in a formulatic way to create humor, and then.....as if by some act of magic, this means that the poster himself is (fill in the blanks with the various names that Kaak has been called).

That is what we've taken issue with from the start.

You don't like the piece? Cool.

You want to explore ad nauseum why you don't like the piece? Cool.

You want to call the piece fifty different names? Great. Have at it.

You direct those names at Kaak in particular (which, again, you already said you didn't)....not cool.

Are you seriously suggesting that noting racism is racist because people who point out racism are "jumping to nasty stereotypes?" Better to just sweep racism under the rug, is it? Sh*t, if everyone believed your drivel my lawn would be mowed by unpaid darkies right now. Racism exists, and to call people who recognize it racist just because they dare to broach the topic is not just wrong, it's vile.

No...I think he's suggesgting that it's VILE to read a non-original post, copied and pasted from elsewhere and clearly designed to be a humor-piece, lie and call it an "OP", disagree with it with such venom that instead of attacking the piece, it becomes a personal attack on the person who found it.

And I agree.

Strongly.

-=Vel=-

(having said that, I'll add that I also agree that racism clearly exists. Unfortunately, and I'm sure you realize this, the "racist" tag gets misused and overused extensively, as it was in this case. Kaak is no more a racist for merely posting the comedic piece than I am a fascist for posting the hitler speech excerpt. That's the bottom line).

[Kaak]

okay this is officially going to be my last post in this thread, and here is why. I once saw a show called "defending the caveman" in which the guy doing the show was attempting to point out the differences between men and women and said something to the effect of "Men and women have problems understanding each other. The reason for this, and this is the way you have to put it to not get in trouble guys, is that women are hindered by the bounds of logic or reason."

That seems to be the case here.

The "voice" of the original post seemed to have expectations, and some people on this thread took the expectations of the voice, and tried to say that because he had those expectations, the illegals have that expectation. That's a pretty big jump in logic.

It is really sad that people will try to make something into something it isn't, go on a witch hunt, etc etc, but hey I guess that's what makes you "cool" huh Ted? Nice work

I really hope you guys don't act like this in real life. If you do, I'm sure you are quite the social outcast. but don't worry, there will always be things on 'poly that you can rant about

[Velociryx]

Amen, Kaak. And if you're outta this thread, then I'm inclined to leave it to the PC ***** Brigade.

I just didn't like seeing them getting away with a senseless witch hunt for something you didn't deserve....wanted you to know that someone had your back, and I'm pretty sure that's why Ogie jumped in, too.



-=Vel=-

[Patroklos]

She also knows from first hand experience that many of them are scared sh*tless about going into a government facility, probably thinking that CCS will turn them over to the INS.

Odd that the only people with a correct view of what immigration enforcement should be is the illegals themselves.

TEAM CRACKER -- Texans and a couple of other elitist white guys

Funny that Ted still thinks he can call people racists after saying retarded cap like this.

[Kaak]

And it's appreciated, but reading the posts they made about how cool there were, and how they thought they were proving themselves right and winning arguements just made me realize that they either a) weren't really reading the thread or b) had completely jumped ship on logic and reason. In either case, continuing the discussion is pointless.

[Velociryx]

Double Post hunted down and eaten.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

And it's appreciated, but reading the posts they made about how cool there were, and how they thought they were proving themselves right and winning arguements just made me realize that they either a) weren't really reading the thread or b) had completely jumped ship on logic and reason. In either case, continuing the discussion is pointless.


Agreed and standing down.

Odd that the only people with a correct view of what immigration enforcement should be is the illegals themselves.

Funny that Ted still thinks he can call people racists after saying retarded cap like this.

Patroklos - you forgot the first rule of PC. It's not racist if YOU do the name calling. It's only racist if you say it is, when the other guy does something you don't like.

and finally...YOU (personally, and me and Ogie and Kaak, at a minimum) aren't a member of the privilidged club that's allowed to perform under the rules above.

How utterly silly of you.

-=Vel=-

[Cyclotron]

Erm... Vel, you responded to my post (see 170).

I think that clearly, by now, we are arguing different things. You are no longer posting the things I originally objected to, such as

Entirely misses the point that the piece is not astute social commentary, but written in a formulatic way meant to convey humor. Nothing more.

However, such pieces do not seriously imply that all Germans fit the stereotype, just as the first post in this thread doesn't imply with seriousness that its "charges" apply to all Mexicans.

To say that it does....to treat it as serious commentary on the state of affairs today, is to completely miss the point of the humor.

I don't really see the need to argue over this further, so I won't. However, I would suggest that you seriously analyze the political content that is in both jokes and literature more readily - there is very little indeed that is so innocuous as to make no point at all. This is not "harmless" comedy, funny though it may be. People don't write in a vacuum.