Personal Spiritual Problems

[Ben Kenobi]

A true religion wouldn't need updates... because God is perfect... he would have gotten it right the first time.

He has. Who says he has to show us everything all at once?

Look at how you instruct students. You show them some stuff, then more stuff, and over time they come to understand things better then they did previous.

You have to teach that which your student can understand.

[Ben Kenobi]

Of those only Catholics and Eastern Orthodox claim to be the one true church, so I guewss it must be one of those 2.

Well said. The way I see it is the different claims. Two claim that visible unity is essential, while all the others say that it is invisible unity. It is an essential component of any denomination that has broken away to stress the invisible unity because that justifies their own division. But I can't help but see what most folks see on the outside. You have all these little groups that agree on most things, and yet they choose to be divided rather then together.

A real shame.

[Pekka]

"as for open minded, at this point, I may have various beliefs and conclusions about things, but I always approach everything with absolute objectivity... or at least, as best I can..."

everyone is biased. Bias does not necessarily mean negative bias. Something every scientist and researches knows.

beingofone, thanks, that was an interesting message. Actually you write quite interestingly, even though this is the first message that I read from you.

It's just that... if I was God, I wouldn't want people to 'worship me' all the time. You know, get a life and stuff. Life is a gift. Use it. Try things. Learn and educate others from what you've learned. Go forward.

The most disappointed I would be at folks who were raised to praise me (if I was God), adn they never questioned me at all, or too little. That's blind faith.

I'd also be disappointed at the way some people lift themselves up to be authorities to speak in my name. Trying to draw conclusions and make them as facts and use it against others.

If I had created all of us, I wouldn't care if you come up with rituals what ever they may be. They would seem weird to me. I'd know you appreciate me if I had all the power to see your hearts.

So they say it's like a test, a free will of a human. You can choose. If you choose me, then you will be saved.. even if you make ltos of mistakes, or what ever, if you still, at the end choose me, you will be saved. I would consider this to be .. priority message in the top layer. Then why all the 'if you don't belong to this or stand on your left leg..'. That all becomes obsolete.

It's like if you have a dog. Leave the door open and let the dog do what he wants. If the dog comes back voluntarily, then you're his master. Except if you force your influence to them too much first... but they'll still run for it!

[Ben Kenobi]

The Bible, specifically, the parts about Jesus, was written DECADES after Jesus allegedly existed...

Alright. Now can you tell me how that compares to all the other historical figures that we accept at first hand from the same period? How do we know anything about Julius Caesar or Octavian, or any of the Romans for that matter.

When were the sources written for them? Decades, or hundreds of years afterwards?

How many copies do we have of these sources which have been copied and translated over the last 2000 years?

I agree we ought to be suspicious of some of these claims, but skepticism in one matter, religion ought also be applied elsewhere.

and in many cases, by authors with dubious agendas, who may or may not have even witnessed the events...

Can you tell me who wrote each book? Who are the authors? Who is the disciple whom Christ loved?

They were eyewitnesses to some of the events, and just like any other historian, they take evidence from other eyewitnesses. If you are going to throw out the Gospels for their 'dubious agenda', then we have to throw out Greece and Rome also.

But in addition to that, for hundreds of years, these texts were in the control of "THE CHURCH" which had it's own agendas, which often changed every time a new pope took control.

Okay. What do you make of the fact that we have copies of these individual books dating to within the second century ad?

Or how all the church fathers cite these books in their writings, their commentaries, and cite them in such a manner that we could assemble all of scripture merely from their citations.

You think we're even getting the real story from Iraq? What makes you think we've heard the real story from what happened 2,000 years ago?

The choice I think is rather simple. You can accept the Gospels and the history that we know as the time, as the only account that we have and the truth.

Or you can reject both. Your decision.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
The only difference here is that so many people believe "2+2=5"

Which also, gives legitimacy to the notion... the false belief.

But just because I can recognize something as being obviously false doesn't mean I'm not open minded.

No one here believes that 2+2=5. They have different beliefs than you do about the existence and nature of God. That is very different my friend.

[Ben Kenobi]

Forgiveness and self acceptance are the key.

I do not "love my neighbor as myself" because you deserve it - its because I deserve it. I need to be OK with me.

Lots I agree with in your post, but not this.

We love our neighbour not because of how good we are, we love him because of his creator. That is why there is only one commandment, in two forms, to love God, and to love your neighbour as yourself.

If we got what we deserve, it would be eternal punishment.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
If we got what we deserve, it would be eternal punishment.

and why do we deserve that?

[Jon Miller]

cause we are right bastards

JM

(note, I don't beleive in eternal punishment.. but we definitely don't deserve to be saved..)

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kidicious


No one here believes that 2+2=5. They have different beliefs than you do about the existence and nature of God. That is very different my friend.

Well, there are some beliefs that people hold that range from reasonable to the absurd. I'm not going to address anyone personally, so let's move on.

And there are people that believe in things that are completely false... literal creationism, etc... supernatural miracles, noah's ark, wine into water, the resurrection, etc...

I'm not an atheist. I don't rule out the possibility of the existence of God. I just wanted to point that out. Although I find the idea rather silly, and many things about it don't make sense. But it could be true. Nobody knows. Which is why it's pointless to believe in it.




I know other people have respond to things I've said, I'll reply later... I've got to get dinner now.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Alright. Now can you tell me how that compares to all the other historical figures that we accept at first hand from the same period? How do we know anything about Julius Caesar or Octavian, or any of the Romans for that matter.

When were the sources written for them? Decades, or hundreds of years afterwards?

I hate this argument -- it never goes anywhere -- but I'll wade in anyway. The historical evidence for the existence of Julius Caesar is better than the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ because:

1) There's more of it, and more of it is contemporary
2) It comes from more varied sources
3) More of it is disinterested

The best -- only, really -- historical evidence for the existence of Christ are the three synoptic gospels, which

1) are not a lot of sources, really -- especially when you consider that two of them borrow heavily from the third
2) have as their agenda proclaiming Jesus as the messiah (i.e., are about as far from disinterested as you can get)
3) have a bunch of stuff in them that even biblical scholars concede is almost certainly fabricated (most notably, the story of Jesus's birth)

I think Jesus did exist, and at least some of what he did is recorded in the synoptic gospels, but I love history way too much to ever regard the gospels as historic evidence.

[Jon Miller]

If Jesus didn't exist, it would be a bigger disception than scientology. (like in difficulty, as it would take convincing people that were in in the Galelee area in the first part of AD that there was some preacher going arround healing people and the like, when the preacher didn't exit)

Jon Miller

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Alright. Now can you tell me how that compares to all the other historical figures that we accept at first hand from the same period? How do we know anything about Julius Caesar or Octavian, or any of the Romans for that matter.

When were the sources written for them? Decades, or hundreds of years afterwards?

How many copies do we have of these sources which have been copied and translated over the last 2000 years?

I agree we ought to be suspicious of some of these claims, but skepticism in one matter, religion ought also be applied elsewhere.

You know what?

All those other historical figures you mention, I don't recall reading about them performing any miracles or any unbelievable supernatural acts. I don't doubt that Jesus existed, but rather, all the mystical, superstitious nonsense.

If someone came up to me and claimed Julius Caesar shot lightning from his eyeballs and conquered the known world riding a flying horse... then I'd have just as much skepticism about those stories as I do the Bible. But fortunately for Caesar, the historical record about him doesn't contain anything like that.

However, the story about Caesar... all the people involved, Brutus, the famous lines, all that stuff. Do I think that's what really happened? Not for sure, no. Do I believe in it as I would a God? Do I take it as blind faith? No. I fully recognize that it's history, and that it may very well be the case that the story regarding Caesar may not be what really happened. But I accept the current version because that's all we have. I take it with a grain of salt.

But I'm not about to believe IN IT the way a religionista has faith in their God.

I think this is where you are seriously having issues here, BK. Maybe you think everyone believes in things the way you believe in Jesus? I don't know. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's the way I view history.

And sorry, when I start hearing about miracles and other supernatural things, I tend to think it's all a bunch of bull****.

Or myths, parables, and fairy tales if you prefer.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

By interesting coincidence, there's a review in today's Salon of what sounds like a completely goofy book -- by one of the authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail -- that purports that Jesus faked his own death. That's not worth dwelling on. But the review -- which would seem to be both more thoughtful and better-written than the book it's reviewing -- does make this point rather eloqently:

All this leads, of course, to the problems of treating the Bible as a historical source. There are no contemporary accounts of Jesus' existence, although this isn't surprising, since he wouldn't have seemed sufficiently important to the people who wrote those accounts. Most modern scholars, including the secular ones, believe that someone more or less like Jesus did really exist and that there's a kernel of historical truth to the New Testament, but as with Homer's "Iliad," whatever originally happened has been encrusted with myth and legend, as well as fundamentally reshaped by those who passed on the story.

The New Testament gospels are based on oral traditions. Anyone who's ever played the child's game Telephone knows how easily words can be distorted as they're passed along from one person to another -- even when the people are all sitting in the same room on the same day, let alone when they're handed down over decades or more by individuals who are advocating religious agendas. Even in a thoroughly documented, highly literate era like our own, information gets distorted and distortions become conventional wisdom.

For example, depending on who you are, you might believe one or more of the following "facts": All the Jews employed at the World Trade Center were warned not to report to work on the morning of Sept. 11; the novelist Jonathan Franzen turned down an invitation to have his novel featured in Oprah Winfrey's book club; New Orleans residents stranded in the city after Hurricane Katrina fired guns at rescue helicopters; Saddam Hussein was in league with al-Qaida before the American invasion of Iraq. It's an easily verifiable matter of public record that none of the statements above are true, but many people believe them all the same. Now imagine how hard it is to find out what really happened in the Middle East 2,000 years ago when there are no official records and almost all of the participants were illiterate religious fanatics.

[Sava]

zomfg, that means you are saying Julius Caesar wasn't real!!

[beingofone]

Pekka:

It's just that... if I was God, I wouldn't want people to 'worship me' all the time. You know, get a life and stuff. Life is a gift. Use it. Try things. Learn and educate others from what you've learned. Go forward.

"Pray without ceasing." -- Paul the Apostle

Learning is a form of worship, so is getting a life.

"Love the Lord thy God with all thy mind, soul, heart, and strength." -- Jesus

When we realize that our every thought eminates from the eternal, all that we can do is to be in a state of continual gratitude.

For example: Think of a snow capped mountain. Who told your brain to think of a snow capped mountain?
Now - think of anything you choose to think about.

Who told your brain to think about what you just chose to think about? Our brain is the servant and not the master. We could say cause and effect introduced through comparisons. Burn the concept all the way down.

Now think of white noise. Can you go between the words and the images in your mind? That is the source of all thought. What is commonly refered to as consciousness.

Once we realize there is no other place to find God, he takes up a home in us, not looking down at us. When he looks out at the world, he uses your eyes.

The most disappointed I would be at folks who were raised to praise me (if I was God), adn they never questioned me at all, or too little. That's blind faith.

It is only blind when we project God out past Alpha vacuum deep space .
I am not asking you to have 'blind' faith. I am asking you to look for innocence, purity, and the source of life in you. You cannot find a God out there. The reason is even if you found a god 'out there' somewhere, it would still be your consciosness perceiving the event and so it still remains with you and your awareness.

Do you trust yourself and your awareness?

This is the essence of true faith and its eyes are wide open.

I'd also be disappointed at the way some people lift themselves up to be authorities to speak in my name. Trying to draw conclusions and make them as facts and use it against others.

Then its up to you isn`t it? If you are dissapointed at others, begin forgiving them and nothing can hide from the gaze of true compassion. It is seeing things as they truly are without the attachment of expected outcome.

It is the experience of acceptance in the reconciling through the infinite weapon of forgiveness that allows us to experience freedom. Isn`t that what Jesus was a master at?

It's like if you have a dog. Leave the door open and let the dog do what he wants. If the dog comes back voluntarily, then you're his master. Except if you force your influence to them too much first... but they'll still run for it!

Good example.

True genius is the culmination of logic and the culmination of ethics simultaneously because in reality the two are inseparable. People are not logical because they won't face the ethical requirement and they are not ethical because they are not logical enough.
Genius is a state of being where the mind fulfills all logicality and a person's ultimate ethical requirement is fulfilled because his mind has become conscious of its intimate connection with the universe in its totality.

-- David Quinn


Ben Kenobi:

We love our neighbour not because of how good we are, we love him because of his creator. That is why there is only one commandment, in two forms, to love God, and to love your neighbour as yourself.

How can youcare about God who you cannot see, if you cannot care about one who you can see? If you cannot find good in yourself, where will you find it?

The compassion of God is perfected in you when you care - holding nothing back. The only goodness of God you can ever possibly know is in you. Where else can you find it?

If we got what we deserve, it would be eternal punishment.

I understand the message of grace - believe me.

God seemed to think you were more of value than anything he could find and therefore made you worthy through grace.
" That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us"
-- Paul the Apostle

Jesus did not come to start a 'new' religion in comparison to all the others. He came to start a new species of creation.

You are not a human being having a spiritual experience, you are a spirit being having a human experience.