Personal Spiritual Problems

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
That's unfortunate. But hopefully, through education, each generation that follows will see religion for what it is... nonsense.

Education can be just as bad as religion, and in so far as it teaches that people are wrong in their personal believes education is just as bad.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava


A true religion wouldn't need updates... because God is perfect... he would have gotten it right the first time.

Can something be right the first time and change at the same time?

[Pekka]

God is perfect but religion never is.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Education can be just as bad as religion, and in so far as it teaches that people are wrong in their personal believes education is just as bad.

Well duh... if I understand what you are saying... kind of a clumsy sentence, but I think I get the jist of what you are saying. I think that education should stress the fundamentals of critical thinking... keeping an open mind, encouraging a sort of curiousity for knowledge... and instead of telling kids what to believe, let them explore things for themselves and find out their own answers. Teach them about history, different philosophies, belief systems, theories, etc... and let people make up their own minds. Maybe one day science can give us some answers and we can use our own sense of reason to sort everything out to come to a conclusion. I know some people have problems with the chaos and uncertainty that comes with not believing in something... but I find the constant drive to find answers to be the reason to keep going, because if we really did have all the answers, what would be the point of existence?

Can something be right the first time and change at the same time?

I suppose that if God is perfect, he could get it right the first time. Wouldn't that make sense?

The whole notion that "God reveals things to us as time progresses" sounds like an excuse for a false religion to me.

But hey, what is more likely, that an all powerful God is slowly leading us along a journey of sorts, revealing things to us as time goes on? Or that the religion is just wrong and believers are fooling themselves (and others) and coming up with these explanations to justify their own false beliefs?

I don't know about you, but the latter sounds a lot more likely to me.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
Well duh... if I understand what you are saying... kind of a clumsy sentence, but I think I get the jist of what you are saying. I think that education should stress the fundamentals of critical thinking... keeping an open mind, encouraging a sort of curiousity for knowledge... and instead of telling kids what to believe, let them explore things for themselves and find out their own answers. Teach them about history, different philosophies, belief systems, theories, etc... and let people make up their own minds. Maybe one day science can give us some answers and we can use our own sense of reason to sort everything out to come to a conclusion. I know some people have problems with the chaos and uncertainty that comes with not believing in something... but I find the constant drive to find answers to be the reason to keep going, because if we really did have all the answers, what would be the point of existence?
I suppose that if God is perfect, he could get it right the first time. Wouldn't that make sense?

Well human nature is human nature. Just because you don't believe in a religion doesn't mean that you don't have bias and don't try to impose your views on people. But it would be super if more people were truly critical thinkers.

The whole notion that "God reveals things to us as time progresses" sounds like an excuse for a false religion to me.

But hey, what is more likely, that an all powerful God is slowly leading us along a journey of sorts, revealing things to us as time goes on? Or that the religion is just wrong and believers are fooling themselves (and others) and coming up with these explanations to justify their own false beliefs?

I don't know about you, but the latter sounds a lot more likely to me.

I was questioning your assumption that what is right(edit: perfect) doesn't change. We don't know what it right anyway? How can we say that God has limited power must because things aren't to our liking when we really don't know God's will in the first place.

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Regarding the Bible, you should read the scholarship of Elaine Pagels (prof of Religious Studies at Princeton) and of Bart Ehrmann (prof of Religious Studies at U of North Carolina - Chapel Hill). Both have demonstrated convincingly that the Bible is the product of sectarian struggle, in which one branch of Christianity sought to label different brances as heretical. Second-century Christianity was more diverse -- and had more Gospels -- than contemporary Christianity. Whatever your beliefs, its an interesting story that all Christians should know. (Ehrmann's latest book, Misquoting Jesus, is currently on the NY Times besteller list.)
.

That doesnt change things much for a christian.

Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church, so, for a christian nowadays, if a "christian denomination" existed in the past which now doesnt exist, then it means that it was not the church jesus founded.
Because then the gates of hell would have prevailerd agaisnt his church and it would make jesus a liar.

So, the only true church has to be one of the churchs which can actually trace their existance 2000 years back and still exists, so far I think Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Copts/Armenians/Ethiopians and some small nestorian communities in the middle east are the only ones who can claim that.

Of those only Catholics and Eastern Orthodox claim to be the one true church, so I guewss it must be one of those 2.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church, so, for a christian nowadays, if a "christian denomination" existed in the past which now doesnt exist, then it means that it was not the church jesus founded.

Jesus founded a church?

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Well human nature is human nature. Just because you don't believe in a religion doesn't mean that you don't have bias and don't try to impose your views on people. But it would be super if more people were truly critical thinkers.

I'm not disagreeing with you. However, my position is, things would be better if people weren't running around believing in myths and superstition. That's all. I'm not saying things will be perfect... just better.

we really don't know God's will in the first place.

WE HAVE A WINNAR



But do you understand what I'm saying about God and religion, when it comes to perfection?

If God is perfect, he's going to get it right the first time. Meaning, any religion that is truly the "word of God" is going to be perfect. It's going to stand up to any test, any doubt, any nay-sayers, it's not going to have any logical problems. It's going to be perfect. And that's how you can spot the false religions. If they aren't perfect, they are false. And any false religion shouldn't be believed in.

This is what I want believers to understand. If your religion isn't perfect... it's false.

Why continue to believe in something that is false? Just for faith? That's a pretty silly and ridiculous reason, IMO. Why would God require blind faith? Blind faith is also what a false religion would need.

If God does exist, he's obviously not revealing himself... for whatever reason. But we can obviously assume that he doesn't want us to waste our time with faith and belief... otherwise, he'd just present himself and tell us in no uncertain terms... BELIEVE IN ME... WORSHIP ME...

Otherwise, he's either on the down low, or he doesn't exist. Either way, we should concentrate on other things than faith and belief.

[Barnabas]

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [1] I will build my church, and the gates of hell [2] shall not prevail against it.

Yes

Jesus did not write a book, he did not send us the bible from heaven, he founded a church, the church predates the bible.

[Pekka]

Jesus did not write that book. So. Anything that's on it can not be taken word by word, if you have that one passage, I give it value of... negative 1.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Pekka
Jesus did not write that book. So. Anything that's on it can not be taken word by word, if you have that one passage, I give it value of... negative 1.

You know, most people today are so suspicious of news sources and bias... so quick to dismiss what they read because they might not agree with the source, despite the fact that the people writing the articles are the ones "on the ground" seeing these events unfold... etc.

The Bible, specifically, the parts about Jesus, was written DECADES after Jesus allegedly existed... and in many cases, by authors with dubious agendas, who may or may not have even witnessed the events... not to mention, the creative licenses they have taken, the number of times their works have been edited, translated. But in addition to that, for hundreds of years, these texts were in the control of "THE CHURCH" which had it's own agendas, which often changed every time a new pope took control.

My point is... WHO THE HELL KNOWS WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?

You think we're even getting the real story from Iraq? What makes you think we've heard the real story from what happened 2,000 years ago?

Anyone?

And if you say "Yes"... I've got a bridge I want to sell you.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
I'm not disagreeing with you. However, my position is, things would be better if people weren't running around believing in myths and superstition. That's all. I'm not saying things will be perfect... just better.

If we want to teach people to be critical thinkers we have to allow them to make that decision for themselves, and we can't say they aren't critical thinkers just because they have made a certain decision.

If God is perfect, he's going to get it right the first time. Meaning, any religion that is truly the "word of God" is going to be perfect. It's going to stand up to any test, any doubt, any nay-sayers, it's not going to have any logical problems. It's going to be perfect. And that's how you can spot the false religions. If they aren't perfect, they are false. And any false religion shouldn't be believed in.

This is what I want believers to understand. If your religion isn't perfect... it's false.

If you assume that God exists then you have to make assumptions about what his will is, or you can just accept the idea that you don't know what his will is and that doesn't matter. I think what you are doing here is assuming God exists and then assuming that you know what his will is (what is logical to God, not necessarily you). I know you think you aren't doing that, but you are. How is a human being able to say what a false religion is? You can say it's false for you, but not for God, since you don't know God's will.

Why continue to believe in something that is false? Just for faith? That's a pretty silly and ridiculous reason, IMO. Why would God require blind faith? Blind faith is also what a false religion would need.

If it's definitely false I don't think anyone would have faith in it. I don't think you can just say it's false.

If God does exist, he's obviously not revealing himself... for whatever reason. But we can obviously assume that he doesn't want us to waste our time with faith and belief... otherwise, he'd just present himself and tell us in no uncertain terms... BELIEVE IN ME... WORSHIP ME...

Otherwise, he's either on the down low, or he doesn't exist. Either way, we should concentrate on other things than faith and belief.

Maybe you don't look for God? It might not be so hard to see evidence of God if you looked harder.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [1] I will build my church, and the gates of hell [2] shall not prevail against it.

Yes

Jesus did not write a book, he did not send us the bible from heaven, he founded a church, the church predates the bible.

There's a metaphor for you. Peter is the one who founded the church, right?

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by Pekka
Jesus did not write that book. So. Anything that's on it can not be taken word by word, if you have that one passage, I give it value of... negative 1.

ok, then, repent, or Burn in hell, heretic

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kidicious
we can't say they aren't critical thinkers just because they have made a certain decision.

We absolutely can... if it's blatantly obvious they arrived at that "decision" by not thinking critically. Or if their belief was the product of conditioning (culture, upbringing) and not a decision at all.

(what is logical to God, not necessarily you). I know you think you aren't doing that, but you are. How is a human being able to say what a false religion is? You can say it's false for you, but not for God, since you don't know God's will.

Again... when something is so blatantly false, I can absolutely say for certain that it IS false.

If it's definitely false I don't think anyone would have faith in it.

And yet people still do believe in things that are definitely false... creationism, noah's ark, etc...

I don't think you can just say it's false.

when all the evidence says it is... absolutely I can... but let me say, when I say "false", what I'm actually saying is, "it's so improbable and unlikely, that for all intents and purposes, it's false"... it's just that, it's just easier to just say "it's false". That other way is just too much of a mouthful... or, in the case of forums, too much to type.

Maybe you don't look for God? It might not be so hard to see evidence of God if you looked harder.

Why does he have to be looked for? And most people often see what they want to see when they look for something. I look at the world with an open mind, and I don't see any God. Hell, if I looked really hard, I bet I could find baby Jesus or the Virgin Mary in every dump I took, or every piece of toast I made. But is that proof of God? No, that's my own imagination.

The problem is... most people "look for God" and end up fooling themselves into "finding him".