Personal Spiritual Problems

[Pekka]

AS you know, I don't mind talking about personal stuff. I am heading to a wall, head first and fast. I am Christian, not practicing much but anyway still pretty much ..

OK to the problem. I think in order for me to be a good Christian, I should forget about the whole organization that today exists. I think it's just not serving the purpose itself anymore. I think, that the footsoldiers of God make myself a hypocrite, to be associated with this whole thing. I just don't agree with this stuff anymore. I don't agree with the whole value ridden fundamentalist non-pragmatic approach, that quite frankly is in way for several good things to happen. I don't think it serves the humankind anymore, organized religion, as it exists today. SOME of it is good, maybe most of it. But there are SO MANY sections, that's just way off base in my opinion, and in these sections it doesn't matter what I think, I'm wrong automatically, because of THEIR interpretation of the bible. And most of the times it's not even their own interpretation, but an old interpretation of someone else.

I think, that fundamentally right now, religion is only fueling problems, solving very few of them and basically is a reason for much pain, unnecessary pain, that could be solved pragmatically. And if there is God, IMO God would not have anything against solving these problems in the first place! It is us, the church and society that keeps us behind.

It's like we're losing focus on what's really important, what we should preach, what we should be worried about and how we view ourselves.

I think our church has been hijacked hundreds of years ago. Maybe right after it was established. It's all about pain, suffering, sin and giving you a fear that if you don't believe me, you are going to hell. That's it. The logical circles fundies make are just gross. I bet God is sick in the stomach hearing their statements.

The FUNDAMENTAL problem of Christianity is the thought that we should, as Christians, help others see this thing too. THat is, invading other peoples lives, if they care or not, judge them, manipulate them etc etc.. no no no. We should make ourselves available, but not intrude and offend other people with it.

The 'freedom of religion' seems to be some kind of super entity that has no limits. It sure as hell has no shame.

So, I could give many examples but for the sake of saving your time, the main problem is, the church, the organization is rotten, twisted and sick. As a good Christian, I should get out of it and not be associated with it. Simple human beings would say, then you go to hell or what ever. Hey, you can believe what you want, but when you said that, again, you intruded my privacy and offended me. Not very Christian. We should look into this whole thing and see where we live now and update the religion. That's the only solution. And practice what we preach, starting from accepting people who ever they are, and stay the hell out of their business and stop limiting their freedoms in the name of flexing our own 'religious freedoms and duties'.

At least my God can understand this. It has nothing to do with Christianity. If yours can't, well, maybe you will go to nazi heaven?

[Japher]

Man made god in his own image...

[Cort Haus]

Secularism

[Pekka]

Are you suggesting I am God?

Anyway, there are just... OK, in the days of crusades, we kind of went with this thing more shamelesly, and many times killing folks. You know, learn or die. Effective. Uhh you brown person believe in something else? The same? But diffrenetly? DIE!

Those days are gone, yes.. but we still do the same, except without swords. Some would argue we still do it with missiles, I don't believe this however. I do believe we still are on a mission to convert as much people as possible. And that is something I don't agree with as a Christian who does not judge people based on these things. These converting peo ple say they are doing a good job and helping these people... yeah, helping some, hurting many others. Who knows what the overall result is.

I don't think that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or whoever.. I dont' think they go to hell. If there is heaven, we all go there, period. Unless you're really sick twisted person but then again you're sick so you still come. So no, I don't think any of us will go to hell.

And basically I don't think that's the point even. If we are to use religion to something GOOD, it shouldn't be about that at all. It should be about helping others. Regardless of their religion. Period. Not trying to convert them. They do that if they want to. It should be their own balanced choice without influence. Kind of like a.. pacifistic approach. You know do what you want, wanna join? Cool. You don't? Ok you're still cool and we'll help you like we would if you converted. In fact, we shouldn't even talk about converting people. It should be a non-issue.

Because it brings TOO MUCH problems and is counter productive.

[Pekka]

So here's the paradox.. I want to be a good Christian. This would involve studying the bible a little (using common sense, aka brains), my heart and realizing the world around me. Also knowing about other religions and philosophies.

Now, to make this balanced.. if I was to really do what my heart follows, I would 'divorce' from the church today, in the basis that I want to be a good Christian.

[Jon Miller]

well, I generally only skim your posts

and that is what I have done here (I might go back and read it more detailed later)

but I somewhat agree with you (surprisingly), I consider myself a Christian

and I read the bible, and pray, and so on...

but I don't always go to church, because church often is full of hypocrites and people who aren't very christian...

now I don't understand, or agree with some of what you wrote, but it wouldn't be a Pekka post if I had

one thing, Christianity needs people to be truly Christian.. and show those that are perverting Christianity (with hate and hypocrisy) are not being very christian...

a warning though, many people are chrstian only in going to church or the like, and maybe you can be.. but to be Christian without being organized (or very organized, I still am organized, I still hope to find a church that works out).. you have to do it on your own

that means, you have to spend time practicing being a Christian (praying, reading, worshiping by yourself or with a few others, etc) on your own

JM

[Pekka]

List of problems and if you are going to debate with me, PLEASE don't just use the bible as the weapon. I do NOT believe it's direct word of God. I believe it's a collection of articles written by men, with the possibility of God affecting their thoughts.

1. Defending God. Hey, get all upset you can, I think God is powerful enough to not need OUR fists and guns and words to defend him. God is not that weak.

2. Judging others. Many say they don't, but they do it while 'interpreting bible'. Bible also says we shouldn't judge each other, so let's just focus on that if we have to live together in this planet of ours.

3. homosexuality. Yes... homosexuality is natural. Is Satan sending these evil vibes to homos? I don't think so. Can two men/women form a couple and love each other? I do believe they can. Therefore, it's about love, and that is universal. No problem. As for having sex with everyone, well, everyone does that, and when it's not hurting anyone, what's the problem? God gave me my willie and these feelings. If everyone is having fun and no one is hurt, no problem. But it would be healthy to focus on someone at some point of your life, to have stability. Let the homos be. They are equal to us straight ones in every single way. God created them too. Why would he make 'faulty ones' for us to 'fix'? Right....

4. The whole thing where we state that we are right and basically everyone is wrong. How stupid is that, regarding that we have lots of 'God fills the gaps' in our material. Why are they wrong and we are right? Because the bible says... yeah.

5. The whole bible thing. It's a freaking book! It's just article collections basically. AND it was voted what gets in it. So at least right there we know humans affected the result of modern bible. If it is God's word, is it balanced?

6..7..8..9...10...11...

[Pekka]

and about these things, homosexuality etc.. hey.. if you're a CHristan and think it's wrong.. OK.. you know I don't have a problem with that. It's when you start intruding the gay peoples lives, or massing troops to .. condemn them, the same thing basically, that's when I have a problem.

SO, there are many Christians who don't think being gay is good, but this per se is not something I Have a problem with. You know if you believe that, OK, fine. Just don't ruin peoples lives because of it.

Just wanted to make that clear.

[Jon Miller]

if you don't base Christianity on the Bible.. what do you have to base it on?

I agree that there are different (reasonable) interpretations that can be taken.. But if you remove the Bible, and organized religion, christianity doesn't exit...

Jon Miller

[Pekka]

I do base most of it on the bible. I just don't take it literally. I think that it's a good guide, but what do we focus on reading it? I think I personally should take the universal 'truths' and good things out of it. LIke for example, we should hold everyone equal because man is created equal. I include women to this too.

So, from that point alone, I think that message can't be overriden by any other point. I have prioritized things I see as universal and 'the most important thing'.

It has to start from good, not evil. It has to start from helping people, all people. It has to start from helping everyone unconditionally, even our enemies. Because that's the true test of our sense of equality. By helping I mean if they are in trouble and they ask our help and it would not mean we would be in danger to do it. Like if they ask for bullets because they're out of it, that's not what I mean

It should start from basic principles like peace, equality, respect. Respecting everyone in the sense that if you are not like me, or live like I don't agree, it is still your way and I let you do that without interrupting, as long as you're not hurting anyone. It should start from admitting that we are only human, and that we make mistakes, including interpreting the bible.

We should start from more basic principles. We should start from within. What is God? Is God good? And not by going to school to learn about it like science. We should all look deep into our hearts and minds, read, learn some too, think for ourselves. If we find religion, then it's real first of all. It doesn't matter if I'm affiliated with an organization. I should find it true to join. The strength is not in numbers.

This way we can build a comprehensive understanding, that would undoubtetly be more respecting of others, more understanding and supporting. These are good themes. Good themes is what I think God advices us to do.

I think we are doing a lot of things God wouldn't agree us doing in his name none of the less.

You know, kind of keeping it simple. Focusing on what REALLY matters. The universal, fundamental issues.

[Pekka]

I also don't like the 'if you don't practice it like we do, then you're doing it wrong'. And those people too, they all practice it differently.

It's like, is that really important? In my mind it's not important.

[Jon Miller]

many people see the bible as a good philosophy book

they see Christ as having many good ideas

just as I see bhuddism having many good ideas

but that does not make me bhuddist, I am Christian because I beleive in Jesus Christ

so to be Christian, you do have to beleive more than just in a few universal truths, which are found in all decent religions

not saying that you are a bad person for doing so, just saying that you aren't christian

and I do think that Christianity is right..

and so while there is some value from other beleif systems.. the most value can be found in Christianity

Jon Miller

[-Jrabbit]

I am shocked at the seriousness of this discussion.

[Pekka]

yeah many people use it as a useful guide and philosophy. And many take it literally.

I've never denied Jesus.

[Proteus_MST]

If you take a closer look at the bible,
there are many passages (OT) where you see that the
the people which are supported by god don´t seem to be people who believe in justice and peace, but rather in slavery, murder, genocide and war (many examples can be found in Moses, for example 1. Moses 34: 25-29 or even 5.Moses 2: 32-35 where God himself gives orders to wage a war, which leads to a genocide on the enemys [with not even women and children being spared])

You also find strange passages within the new testimony, which somehow don´t fit to Jesus.
For example Luke 14:26, where Jesus wants his disciples to hate their parents which somehow seems to contradict the ten commandments.
Or as Jesus was hungry and saw a fig tree he just let them wither with the move of his hand (Matthew 21:18-19) doesn´t sound like a nice thing from Jesus tio do to another living being.

There are also contraditions in the stories which are told about Jesus.
For example the resurrection:
In Matthew 28:2 and Mark 16:5 the women (upon seeing that the stone was rolled away from Jesus tomb) see one person/angle, but in Luke 24:2-3 they see 2 persons/angels.
There is also disagreement among Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, to which people Peter denied Jesus before the **** crowed

So I think Pekka is correct in basing it´s belief rather on the core values of christianity rather than the literal truth of the bible