Personal Spiritual Problems

[Ben Kenobi]

Why would I need to go to church to begin with? I'm not into organ music about pain and death. Or the even crazier than my own ramblings of some old dude who seems to be in touch with reality and God less than normal people.

It's a good question. If we can know Jesus ourselves, why does it help us to go to worship with all the other folks and all their flaws?

We aren't called by Christ to just love him, but to love our fellow brothers and sisters, and church is a form of community in which we can do all these things.

The last reason I would say is because we need help in order to live our lives in Christ. When we are in a community of those who do believe, you have that much more support.

I don't think I have any responsiblities as a Christian except to do what my heart tells me to do.

So if your heart were to tell you to make love to another lady it would be your Christian duty to do so?

My problem is not that they have less faith than myself. Quite the contrary, I think they have blind faith, many of them, that leads them to discrimination of others for starters and it seems to create obstacles to their thinking. They have blind trust. And that's why they are easily manipulated, easily believe what someone tells them. For example, if a priest tells them something, they will believe it. Priest is just a person. It's not word of God.

Is it possible for someone to believe in what the priest says and to follow the teachings of Christ so that you would not consider them a sheeple? I hear this from plenty of folks, that just by looking at a group of people they know that their faith is blind, that they have never stood on their own and questioned why it is what they do.

I don't doubt there are some folks who have never thought about these things. But unless I have had a chance to meet them and speak to them, it's hardly possible for me to see what is in the heart of another.

Now, what you say is more viable solution. To find something that suits me better. However, we are super homogenic place, in terms of race, people and religion.

So mostly Lutherans. I'd look around maybe talk to some of the more unusual folks, and see what you can find out. I remember my first time back home in church, surprised lots of folks who knew me growing up. It also surprised me just how many of them attended, and how alien my experience growing up was from theirs.

The first thing is to get an idea of what it is that you do want? If it's something as simple as the music, or the traditions, you should have a pretty good idea of what it is that you would actually like before you decide to start looking.

Also I don't see why I need to practice traditions of what ever it is that the section would have. I'm just not into it. I'm not into the whole thing in general. I might be up to a different approach altogether. But that is hard to find, even impossible.

Ok. So lets go back to this calling to read the bible. How are you going to go about and do that? Read a bit everyday? When the mood strikes? Set aside a specific time so that it becomes a habit?

These are all traditions, and that's why you see them, they help people practice their faith.

Also, I think that associating myself with this whole big organisation, the whole Christianity thing, I see it going the wrong way in the big scheme of things. Not as faith, but in actions and inactions.

What do you mean by this whole 'associating thing?' What bothers you about the association?

As to why those articles, I see nothing weird or miraculous about how it would come together. I just don't see it as anything special, even though I consider bible special book.

It's the natural question. Logically, if there is nothing special about these articles then you are lead to the question as to why they chose to pick these books. Then you have to ask yourself who are they?

BUT just a book. A guideline and collection of stories and lessons. That's about it. One of the things that leads to difficult situation in my eyes is the literal interpretation of the bible. And as I don't believe that it's a... miracle book like that, I tend ot have a problem with the ideas many present as ultimate truths. Part of blind faith.

Ok. So what are the 'tenets of Christianity, and how do we know they are tenets, the core teachings of Christ?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So if your heart were to tell you to make love to another lady it would be your Christian duty to do so?

That wouldn't be his heart.

[Ben Kenobi]

[Pekka]

"So if your heart were to tell you to make love to another lady it would be your Christian duty to do so?"

Heh.. well maybe not. However, many of the Christian values are common sense human nature type of values, so I don't necessarily categorize say.. helping another person a Christian thing, even though I could. I just don't think Christanity owns the rights to that thing exclusively.

My heart, I mean that it is filled with ideas of what I should do in case a or b. Some of those might be Chrstianity influenced. Kind of 'do the right thing' type of ideas.

"We aren't called by Christ to just love him, but to love our fellow brothers and sisters, and church is a form of community in which we can do all these things. "

Yes. Church is ONE way. But it's nto the only way. I like to extend my helping hand to everyone, beyond religious societies also. I do not put any weight on who I'm helping based on their faith. I don't see that I'm helping a Christian brother or sister even if they are one. I don't identify with that.

"The last reason I would say is because we need help in order to live our lives in Christ. When we are in a community of those who do believe, you have that much more support. "

Yes, but I do expect to be helped whether I'm a member of that section or not. If someone does not want to help me because I might not belong to their section, well, that's just not right. And at the end, it's their problem.

I don't see societies as religious societies. I don't even wish to see societies based on that way. I'd rather see society without religious context, and what they do for their religious needs, that's their own business. That means, if we live in the same block, we might see each other in the church, but outside that, I'd help you and communicate you through non-religious contexts. That is unless you initiate first with religious way first, then I'm forced to go with that, however that's not how I will initiate.

I don't know what you mean by living in Christ. I see Jesus as a mentor, teacher, traveller. I don't wish to live like he did. I wish to listen what he says and possibly learn something.

"Is it possible for someone to believe in what the priest says and to follow the teachings of Christ so that you would not consider them a sheeple?"

Of course it's possible, there's lots of people like that too. Maybe even the majority.

What would I want? Well basically.. you know that's a good question because I know the answer. Music isn't the thing. I'd like to have good conscience knowing that the thing I'm going with is going to the way I see is helpful and therefore meaningful. That would mean pretty liberal group. And also not too .. basically, if the group wants to hold meetings weekly basis, I'm not interested . I'm just not that intensive with the thing. So as you see, it's kind of impossible. I'd like to consider myself as a lone seeker. You know, I don't like to form an opinion of what is right in a group. What my heart tells is right, well that's right for me. I don't like to do compromises on that.

"Ok. So lets go back to this calling to read the bible. How are you going to go about and do that? Read a bit everyday? When the mood strikes? Set aside a specific time so that it becomes a habit?

These are all traditions, and that's why you see them, they help people practice their faith."

When the mood hits. My way of practicing is not intense in any shape or form and I don't see why I would need to. I constantly ponder many issues, I often compare some decisions I make and also political issues through the religious glasses, mine would be pretty liberal, however, I still do consider these things all the time. I think that's practicing, I think that when I think, wonder and process thoughts, that's very much practicing. And I think that's all I need to do as far as practicing goes.

"What do you mean by this whole 'associating thing?' What bothers you about the association?"

The association of the whole club. I see it's going the wrong way. I disagree with many things some would teach. I see Christianity going into more fundamentalist state in general soon, as Islam raises its head more, especially in Europe. As a counter reaction when people start feeling threatened.

"Logically, if there is nothing special about these articles then you are lead to the question as to why they chose to pick these books. Then you have to ask yourself who are they?"

They were mortal men. All I need to know Rest is semantics IMO.

"So what are the 'tenets of Christianity, and how do we know they are tenets, the core teachings of Christ?"

You've gotten a lot of religious schooling haven't you? I mean, making lots of questions. Don't worry though, it's a good way of going with things, one of my favourite methods of education in general.

I don't know what tenet means. Language barrier.

[Pekka]

And even those groups that I might identify myself with would be impossible, because they wouldn't want to form groups either .

EXCEPT maybe for like.. activity, but in non-religious context. Maybe sometimes, we could think the lessons and stories of bible but purely from philosophical point of view and we would also do the same with other religions, kidn of pondering and thinking those. Maybe play some sports or something, and then try to make some small impact within our reach. Like do some volunteer work, set up something ourselves. But that's it. No church, no preaching basically, no ... no rituals. NOt that I'm SO MUCH against them, I just don't see the point in them for me personally. I practice in my own way, mostly inside my head.

So yeah... because I do see problems with organized religion. Not just Christianity, but organized religion in general. So I'd kind of go against that.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Ok. You reject tradition because we all know how tradition is contrary to the Word of God.

Then you reject the literal truth of the bible because it is contrary to what we know of the world.

So what do you base your faith upon? Personal feelings? Your own interpretation of what scripture means? I'm curious as to how one is suppose to arrive at the 'core tenets of Christianity' without access to scripture or tradition.

My own faith is the belief that all religions point to some higher truth, but that none of them is absolutely correct in all aspects of it (and that he doesn´t take such direct actions as writing (or directly ordering people to write) a book with the things he has done) and therefore there is not only one way to "heaven" (if heaven and hell aren´t just "inventions" by humans) but many.

Therefore I, just like pekka, think that the books within the bible are partially books which reflect the history (and beliefs) of certain tribes and partially are written by humans which are really inspired by the higher truth.

And part of my own faith is, that, if the stories in the OT of the bible are literally true (i.e. that god really did all of the the things written therein) I´d rather convert to another faith than to serve this god, as I consider myself to be on the side of some kind of "good" and a lot of things the god in the old testimony did can not be considered "good" by any standards.

[Ben Kenobi]

Heh.. well maybe not. However, many of the Christian values are common sense human nature type of values, so I don't necessarily categorize say.. helping another person a Christian thing, even though I could. I just don't think Christanity owns the rights to that thing exclusively.

By no means. If the only way to agree with Christianity is to already be a Christian, then no one would ever join. I would say most of it is common sense, but some of it is radical, and this will vary slightly depending on the person.

My heart, I mean that it is filled with ideas of what I should do in case a or b. Some of those might be Chrstianity influenced. Kind of 'do the right thing' type of ideas.

Conscience. Some might say Christianity doesn't 'create' your conscience so much as it appeals to what you already know. The truth is somewhere in between. Christianity does appeal to what folks know, even as it helps inform their conscience as they learn.

Yes. Church is ONE way. But it's nto the only way. I like to extend my helping hand to everyone, beyond religious societies also. I do not put any weight on who I'm helping based on their faith. I don't see that I'm helping a Christian brother or sister even if they are one. I don't identify with that.

Of course. It shouldn't and there are many missions specifically directed at those regardless of their faith. Sorta the point really.

Yes, but I do expect to be helped whether I'm a member of that section or not. If someone does not want to help me because I might not belong to their section, well, that's just not right. And at the end, it's their problem.

True, they can help you, and in fact how else would they bring anyone in if they excluded those who were outside? However, I'm referring to the fact that you already are a believer, and that they can support you in what you do believe.

I don't see societies as religious societies. I don't even wish to see societies based on that way. I'd rather see society without religious context, and what they do for their religious needs, that's their own business. That means, if we live in the same block, we might see each other in the church, but outside that, I'd help you and communicate you through non-religious contexts. That is unless you initiate first with religious way first, then I'm forced to go with that, however that's not how I will initiate.

There are many ways, different callings different approaches. For me, I see religion as an essential part of understanding a society, you cannot understand any society without first asking questions about religion. While the vast majority may have nothing to do with religion, this too is significant.

I don't know what you mean by living in Christ. I see Jesus as a mentor, teacher, traveller. I don't wish to live like he did. I wish to listen what he says and possibly learn something.

He is a teacher, but what does he teach? Religion? Morality? Or about how to live your life? That's what I mean by living in Christ, if you have a mentor you wish to model yourself after him. Suspect we are talking about the same thing, just language getting in the way.

What would I want? Well basically.. you know that's a good question because I know the answer. Music isn't the thing. I'd like to have good conscience knowing that the thing I'm going with is going to the way I see is helpful and therefore meaningful. That would mean pretty liberal group.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I didn't realise that wanting to help people and making a difference in their lives was the exclusive province of liberals.

And also not too .. basically, if the group wants to hold meetings weekly basis, I'm not interested . I'm just not that intensive with the thing. So as you see, it's kind of impossible. I'd like to consider myself as a lone seeker. You know, I don't like to form an opinion of what is right in a group. What my heart tells is right, well that's right for me. I don't like to do compromises on that.

I can understand Pekka. You'd be surprised at how short a time it has been that I've attended on a weekly basis myself.

It's perfectly all right to go less frequently and then work up to it as you find yourself wanting to go more often.

When the mood hits. My way of practicing is not intense in any shape or form and I don't see why I would need to. I constantly ponder many issues, I often compare some decisions I make and also political issues through the religious glasses, mine would be pretty liberal, however, I still do consider these things all the time. I think that's practicing, I think that when I think, wonder and process thoughts, that's very much practicing. And I think that's all I need to do as far as practicing goes.

Yet you talk about wanting to do some good and make a difference in people's lives. Pretty hard to do that if all you do is think.

The association of the whole club. I see it's going the wrong way. I disagree with many things some would teach. I see Christianity going into more fundamentalist state in general soon, as Islam raises its head more, especially in Europe. As a counter reaction when people start feeling threatened.

Interesting. I would have expected something like this, and hearing you talk about this confirms some of my other suspicions. The truth is that you'll never agree with everyone in the 'club', since not all of the 'club' will agree on all the issues. It just doesn't happen. Each 'club' usually has certain things you have to believe in to be a member, and others which they permit their members to disagree.

They were mortal men. All I need to know Rest is semantics IMO.

Well, not everyone is interested in history.

You've gotten a lot of religious schooling haven't you? I mean, making lots of questions. Don't worry though, it's a good way of going with things, one of my favourite methods of education in general.

I don't know what tenet means. Language barrier.

Central teaching, same thing as a core idea. Tenet is just a fancy word for idea.

I laugh when you ask about religious schooling, I haven't had very much compared to the folks who grow up with it. I'm learning lots myself.

[Ben Kenobi]

My own faith is the belief that all religions point to some higher truth, but that none of them is absolutely correct in all aspects of it (and that he doesn´t take such direct actions as writing (or directly ordering people to write) a book with the things he has done) and therefore there is not only one way to "heaven" (if heaven and hell aren´t just "inventions" by humans) but many.

Fair enough. This is actually no different from my own belief, at least the first part where all religions point to some truth about God, and that none of them is absolutely correct.

Where we diverge is that I see Christianity as having more truth then anything else. There may be more truth out there, especially if you accept progressive revelation, but Christianity is closer to that truth.

I guess my question is just because all religions have some truth, do you believe that they all have the same amount?

And part of my own faith is, that, if the stories in the OT of the bible are literally true (i.e. that god really did all of the the things written therein) I´d rather convert to another faith than to serve this god, as I consider myself to be on the side of some kind of "good" and a lot of things the god in the old testimony did can not be considered "good" by any standards.

Depends on your standards. Let me ask you this. You know that people are not perfect. Suppose you read about God and you know that he is perfect. Doesn't that automatically mean that his standards are going to be different then our own? And if God wishes to demand his standards it is going to appear painful to us because we all fall short.

Secondly, if you know there is this 'good' standard out there that exists apart from God, that is universal how did you come to know of this standard?

[Pekka]

"For me, I see religion as an essential part of understanding a society"

I used the wrong word, I meant community. Smaller communities. However, I would be contradicting myself if I was to say that I wouldn't allow religious communities. Again, it's their freedom. If it makes them happy and that's the way they want to go about it, sure, by all means. I have nothing against that.

"I'm not sure what you mean by that. I didn't realise that wanting to help people and making a difference in their lives was the exclusive province of liberals."

Exactly. It's no ones exclusive area. That's why I don't see the point of helping people in the name of Jesus or anyone else for that matter. We should help each other Jesus or no Jesus. So.. if I was to help someone, I would not come with Jesus flags and flyers. If they somehow ask about it in personal conversation, I would not deny it. But I would not bring it up either. It should be unconditional. And no, I don't see it as a place to 'spread the word' either. If they want to know, they'll ask. If not, that's ok, because I'm not there to do any missions other than helping, just for the sake of that. If I was helping that is

"Yet you talk about wanting to do some good and make a difference in people's lives. Pretty hard to do that if all you do is think. "

Well, if I think something, then it shows in my actions naturally. I might not be there to spread the word, something I don't believe in. But in work life, I would treat people equally and with justice. And I would try to do my work so that it doesn't do harm to others. Things like that.

Besides, thinking is also acting. If I, by a product of thinking, do not participate in something, then by the way of inaction, I'm already doing something, and that is not participating. Kind of the main theme in this thread..

"Each 'club' usually has certain things you have to believe in to be a member, and others which they permit their members to disagree. "

Exactly. And because I see it going to the opposite direction and not fulfilling the goals, it's a problem. These things I disagree with some actions are fundamental problems, not just some small debates on the side.

Yes you've had lots of religious schooling compared to myself.

But now.. onwards to bed and watch some Trailer Park Boys. In the name of comedy!! (that should take bigger part in religion).

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Fair enough. This is actually no different from my own belief, at least the first part where all religions point to some truth about God, and that none of them is absolutely correct.

Where we diverge is that I see Christianity as having more truth then anything else. There may be more truth out there, especially if you accept progressive revelation, but Christianity is closer to that truth.

I guess my question is just because all religions have some truth, do you believe that they all have the same amount?

I think all religions have prophets pointing into the right direction, but also people who point into the wrong direction (and use the word of the lord for their own gain).
As such I see also the bible as a collection of books/stories written by men, which partly point into the direction of the "eternal truth" but also partly abuse religion for their own gains.
I think that all religions which adhere to certain standards (such as that people shouldn´t kill or that people should work together instead of against other etc.)
Therefore I think that christianity is better than many other religions, but couldn´t say if it points more to the eternal truth than, for example, buddhism.
(well, as I have a certain belief of the eternal truth [see below] I´d think that partly buddhism may point more to it than christianity, as in christianity god often seems to be more displayed acting like a human)

Depends on your standards. Let me ask you this. You know that people are not perfect. Suppose you read about God and you know that he is perfect. Doesn't that automatically mean that his standards are going to be different then our own? And if God wishes to demand his standards it is going to appear painful to us because we all fall short.

If you take the 10 commandments as an example for "good" standards, god himself often enough falls short of them in the stories written within the old testimony.
After all he orders people to murder other people (by ordering them to wage wars) thus ordering them to break one of his commandments or he supports people who commit genocide and other atrocities (just like "they may be bastards, but they are my bastards").
Therefore the god of the OT seems to be far from perfect in my eyes.

Secondly, if you know there is this 'good' standard out there that exists apart from God, that is universal how did you come to know of this standard?

My belief (i.e. what I call the "eternal truth") is that "god" and the universe are one (therefore, we and the universe are part of god, just as god is part of the universe).
Therefore the standards can´t be apart from god.
It also explains much of the standards.
For example the saying of Jesus "love your enemy just like yourself":
As god is the universe and we all are part of god, my enemy and myself have much more in cokmon than it seems to be at first glance, no matter if we share the same belief or not. Therefore it the saying of Jesus should be considered correct (and also the popular saying of "god loves you even if you don´t love him" becomes a much deeper meaning)

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Why would going to church prevent you from studying the bible on your own time? I agree with you that we have a responsibility to study the bible and spend time with it, but that's not our only responsibility as believers.

I can understand you going and saying, well look at all those other folks. Look at how they are never living up to the faith that they profess. Why should I go to church with them when they are not holding up their end?

However, none of us do. We help each other and none of us is supposed to go at it all alone. I also agree that if the community is seriously preventing you from living your faith that you would be justified, but the solution is not to divorce yourself from all communities, but to find one that will support you.

good post, BK

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes you've had lots of religious schooling compared to myself.

I don't know. Formally, I have had two sessions of RCIA, about 10 months of classes in total once a week. All the rest has been informal.

[Ben Kenobi]

(well, as I have a certain belief of the eternal truth [see below] I´d think that partly buddhism may point more to it than christianity, as in christianity god often seems to be more displayed acting like a human)

Yes, God is a personal God in Christianity. Important difference from Buddhism.

If you take the 10 commandments as an example for "good" standards, god himself often enough falls short of them in the stories written within the old testimony.

After all he orders people to murder other people (by ordering them to wage wars) thus ordering them to break one of his commandments or he supports people who commit genocide and other atrocities (just like "they may be bastards, but they are my bastards").
Therefore the god of the OT seems to be far from perfect in my eyes.

Good point. Consider this. Suppose you build yourself a nice big shed. Then after you finish, decide to demolish the shed and rebuild. It wasn't what you liked.

Now, compare that to someone who goes over to his neighbour and sees his shed. The shed is ugly, it really bothers him, so he takes a sledgehammer and totally demolishes the shed.

The two are quite different. You are allowed to destroy that which you own and made yourself, because without you, it would not have been made. The same is with God. God has privileges we do not possess, we do not have the right to kill another person any more then we have the right to destroy a neighbour's shed.

[Jon Miller]

I think that christians far too often just help other christians who look right, and do the right things.

Instead of helping those who are suffering and in pain and in need of assistance. Of course, sometimes other christians are suffering and in pain and need assistance, and I am not saying we should not help them. I am saying though that us christians should help others more.

And not try to make it so that people don't get help unless they listen to us (I have heard of this happening often...).

JM

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Regarding the Bible, you should read the scholarship of Elaine Pagels (prof of Religious Studies at Princeton) and of Bart Ehrmann (prof of Religious Studies at U of North Carolina - Chapel Hill). Both have demonstrated convincingly that the Bible is the product of sectarian struggle, in which one branch of Christianity sought to label different brances as heretical. Second-century Christianity was more diverse -- and had more Gospels -- than contemporary Christianity. Whatever your beliefs, its an interesting story that all Christians should know. (Ehrmann's latest book, Misquoting Jesus, is currently on the NY Times besteller list.)

As for faith, have you considered the diverse, tolerant, open-minded Unitarians? The Unitarian Universalists regard Jesus as a great teacher but not God. The Unitarian Christians regard Christ as divine. Might be what you're looking for.