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  • #91
    Incidentally, quite possibly the biggest reason why McCain won't get the nomination is the Kennedy-McCain legislation/amendment. Tancredo's not going to get the nomination, but he's going to try his damnedest to prevent McCain from getting it.

    The Judiciary Cmte vote was interesting:

    Voting in favor of the bill were:

    Sens. Mike DeWine, R-Ohio; Lindsey Graham, R-S.C.; Sam Brownback, R-Kan.; Arlen Specter, R-Pa.; Patrick Leahy, D-Vt.; Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass.; Joseph Biden, D-Del.; Herbert Kohl, D-Wis.; Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.; Russ Feingold, D-Wis.; Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., and Dick Durbin, D-Ill.

    Voting against the bill were:

    Sens. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah; Charles Grassley, R-Iowa; Jon Kyl, R-Ariz.; Jeff Sessions, R-Ala.; John Cornyn, R-Texas, and Tom Coburn, R-Okla.
    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
    -Bokonon

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    • #92
      I was referring to participating in American civil society, not civil society in general. It's a simple question of did they come to work in the country, or be a genuine part of the country, as well as let the country be a part of them.


      In what way does waving a Mexican flag indicate they they aren't part of this country? My conception of America is tied to freedom, tolerance, and diversity, not mindless flag waving. And in this respect, these people are a hell of a lot more American than the people who want to throw them out.
      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
      -Bokonon

      Comment

      • #93
        Originally posted by Ramo

        In what way does waving a Mexican flag indicate they they aren't part of this country?
        Well...er...maybe because the Mexican flag represents a country other than the US?

        BTW: Saturday, there were lots of American flags mixed in with the Mexican, and many of the Mexican flags had an American flag affixed to the top of the pole. Sunday, the ratio of Mexican flags to US flags had increased. Yesterday and today, I haven't seen any American flags at all.

        Plus, the last two day, protesters have been blocking traffic. This morning it took me three signals to go 1/3 of a block. Nothing pisses off Angelos more than not being able to get we're going in our cars.

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        • #94
          Well...er...maybe because the Mexican flag represents a country other than the US?


          I realize that, thanks. Again, how does waving a Mexican flag constitute rejection of American civil society? In practical and not symbolic terms.
          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
          -Bokonon

          Comment

          • #95
            Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
            Yeah, like they are going to be able to pay huge fines!
            The employers can so let's fine the hell out of them. The main reason they hire illegal labor is because the cost savings are so great compared to legal labor and the fines you pay if caught are so tiny.
            Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Ramo
              Well...er...maybe because the Mexican flag represents a country other than the US?


              I realize that, thanks. Again, how does waving a Mexican flag constitute rejection of American civil society? In practical and not symbolic terms.
              The symbolism is important. It implies that these folks identify with their Mexican identity before their American identity. It suggests assimilation is incomplete. It suggets that if a line is ever drawn between what is Mexican and what is American, they will side with the Mexican.

              You should be American first, ethnicity second. My grandmother wasn't an Italian-American, she was an American who emigrated from Italy. She held onto ways from the old country, but she was certainly an American first in her heart.

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              • #97
                You're not answering the question. What exactly is this non-geographic line between what is Mexican and what is American?

                You say that your grandma was American "in her heart." What does that mean exactly?
                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                -Bokonon

                Comment

                • #98
                  Originally posted by Ramo
                  ... What does that mean exactly?
                  What you think of yourself as....where your first loyalties lie.

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                  • #99
                    I see the Mexican flag right next to an American flag here in Fresno, CA all the time. Waving a Mexican flag does not mean rejection of the American flag by most people here, but maybe for some.
                    I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                    - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                    • #100
                      In tandum is cool it's waving the Mexican flag with no or few American flags in sight that sends the wrong message.

                      Comment

                      • #101
                        Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                        However, these marches were supposed to emphasize just how much illegals were part of the U.S., and to show how much the illegals wanted to be reated as legal Americans. With that goal in mind, it seems really stupid for them to be out waving thousands of Mexican flags to show what good Americans they are.


                        You've gotten it wrong. It was to show that Mexican-Americans are united behind the illegal immigrants' cause, and they make up a good sized voting block.
                        Given no information to the contrary, I surmise that these are predominately illegal immigrants who are marching.
                        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                        • #102
                          Originally posted by Zkribbler
                          In tandum is cool it's waving the Mexican flag with no or few American flags in sight that sends the wrong message.
                          If they feel that way they shouldn't be ambiguous. Just burn the damn thing! I hate ambiguous.
                          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                          Comment

                          • #103
                            I don't think anyone has taken a poll.

                            I was out there marching Sunday, and I'm a third-generation Anglo-Californian.

                            Comment

                            • #104
                              Originally posted by Zkribbler
                              I don't think anyone has taken a poll.

                              I was out there marching Sunday, and I'm a third-generation Anglo-Californian.
                              Why do you believe that illegals should get amnesty?
                              Last edited by Wycoff; March 28, 2006, 15:51.
                              I'm about to get aroused from watching the pokemon and that's awesome. - Pekka

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                              • #105
                                Originally posted by Zkribbler
                                I'm a third-generation Anglo-Californian.
                                Me too
                                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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