Historian gets 3 years in prison for Holocaust denial

[Andemagne]

shame on Austria because of this.

[Colon™]

Well, most authoritharian regimes justify censorship with the claim that certain opinions are dangerous...

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III



I rarely feel an urge to defend my country, but what you're writing is BS. There's nothing "missing"-no cape of silence lies upon the time - to the contrary!

But first, I can't get tired to repeat this here at Poly: It's hypoCRISY not hypocracy, which would mean "Underrule" or something.

Secondly, what you describe was true in the 50s and 60s, was at the latest questioned by the student's movement and since the 80s is complete history. It was, if you wish, a convenient lie of my grandparent's generation to sneak from responsability. It's not a modern Austrian lie, we rather reflect ourselves upon how the "official" history after the war dealt with our own role in it. This debate is public, transported via most media. Truth is that the most important daily boulevard newspaper (Kronenzeitung) still sticks to the "convenient variant", but then again, how little hypocrisy is there in boulevard media, generally spoken?

I honestly believe that we discussed our own historical responsabilities more openly than most other nations. Like the massive backing the pogromes and annihilation of gypsies had in Eastern Europe, the many collaborators in countries like the Netherlands or France...


So don't paint Austria as a country where the time of the 2nd World war would not be discussed. It's a mean lie.

A mean lie that was recently true? I have no doubt it's getting better with the new generation, but here's an example from my own experience. I was in Vienna
several years ago, and visited the excellent Heeresgeschichtliches Museum, or museum of military history. It's a top notch place, but the period from 1938-45 was missing. (Or rather '48 because the Allied occupation is also not dealt with.)

And I just checked their web page (how else could I be expected to spell "Heeresgeschichtliches"?) and it still seems to be the case. This is not the only example, either.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


Irving is a tragic case. He was a respected historian - he wrote a book called Hitler's War which pieced together OKH and OKW records to give an account of the war which afaik is still considered authoritative. He was very critical of Hitler's conduct of the war in that book.

But somehow he also managed to convince himself along the way that Hitler didn't know about the Holocaust, then he went further and denied it. Then he started associating with neo nazi groups and speaking at their rallies, in Germany and other places.

He was challenged by other historians and lost a famous defamation case in the UK. This bankrupted him. Now his remarks have cost him jail time. I think he is mad. He always denied the consequences of his actions which for example in Germany were to encourage attacks on immigrants. Can you prove the link? No, but this is precisely why hate speech is banned. So people can't say things which incite others and then stand back as Irving did.

I could see speaking about this at neo-nazi rallies as inciting hate and criminal acts. I suppose the Holocaust is a pretty clear cut case, but I wonder where the line is drawn. Cartoons come to mind.

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by Wycoff


Every major power has, from the modern perspective, some terrible crime against humanity on its hands. Germany has paid its penance more than any other country.

Not so true, there are reasons why the Mongols or the Germans are more remembered for their atrocities than for example the French.

This, "every great power was bad, there was nothing particularly bad about Germany in comparison to other great powers of the past/of that time who were bad too, germany gets singled out unfairly" speech, I dont think it is good.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by techumseh
A mean lie that was recently true? I have no doubt it's getting better with the new generation, but here's an example from my own experience. I was in Vienna
several years ago, and visited the excellent Heeresgeschichtliches Museum, or museum of military history. It's a top notch place, but the period from 1938-45 was missing. (Or rather '48 because the Allied occupation is also not dealt with.)

And I just checked their web page (how else could I be expected to spell "Heeresgeschichtliches"?) and it still seems to be the case. This is not the only example, either.

That may also be because the swastika is banned... and well, that was quite common in those years. It may also be seens as glofication of the Nazi years to put those uniforms in an Austrian military history museam..

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by techumseh


A mean lie that was recently true? I have no doubt it's getting better with the new generation, but here's an example from my own experience. I was in Vienna
several years ago, and visited the excellent Heeresgeschichtliches Museum, or museum of military history. It's a top notch place, but the period from 1938-45 was missing. (Or rather '48 because the Allied occupation is also not dealt with.)

And I just checked their web page (how else could I be expected to spell "Heeresgeschichtliches"?) and it still seems to be the case. This is not the only example, either.

How did you check the site - because it's there. Though I have to admit that the text given on the site is still somewhat stressing resistance before collaboration (mentioning the 20-July guys etc.) Military folks, I guess...

And since when is 30-40 years "recently" true. I hope your informations about other countries are a bit more immediate.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by techumseh
I was in Vienna several years ago, and visited the excellent Heeresgeschichtliches Museum, or museum of military history. It's a top notch place, but the period from 1938-45 was missing. (Or rather '48 because the Allied occupation is also not dealt with.)

And I just checked their web page (how else could I be expected to spell "Heeresgeschichtliches"?) and it still seems to be the case. This is not the only example, either.

I was in Vienna several years ago and visited the same museum, it's just not true. How did you miss the giant 88 gun?

There were also uniforms and personal weaponry from the period. Maybe I even took some pictures, but I forgot where I put them or I'd show you.

WW2 was the last exhibition, near the exit I think.

[dannubis]

so, when is the iranian president going to jail ?

or anybody of his admin for that matter ?

[alva]

Didn't we have a law that would allow us to do just that?

Oh, that's right, the Americans made us get rid of it.



This post is based on facts.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by VetLegion


I was in Vienna several years ago and visited the same museum, it's just not true. How did you miss the giant 88 gun?

There were also uniforms and personal weaponry from the period. Maybe I even took some pictures, but I forgot where I put them or I'd show you.

WW2 was the last exhibition, near the exit I think.

If that's the case, it's been added since I was there. Did you perhaps mean the Skoda 380mm howitzer?

[Gangerolf]

I've been there too
One year ago. They had a WW2 exhibition there then.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by techumseh


If that's the case, it's been added since I was there. Did you perhaps mean the Skoda 380mm howitzer?

Give me some credit

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by dannubis
so, when is the iranian president going to jail ?

or anybody of his admin for that matter ?

Ya see, The Austrians aren't trying to force their laws on the Iranians, unlike some other people...

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Not so true, there are reasons why the Mongols or the Germans are more remembered for their atrocities than for example the French.

This, "every great power was bad, there was nothing particularly bad about Germany in comparison to other great powers of the past/of that time who were bad too, germany gets singled out unfairly" speech, I dont think it is good.

So you think that Germany deserves the singular scorn of the world? I don't see why they do.

The reason that the German crimes are more remembered is that they did it with industrial efficiency, they kept records, they did it in the era of film and photography, their main victims are currently politically and culturally powerful, they lost the war to the countries that are currently the most powerful in the realm of historiography and popular culture, and the Germans commited their crimes against "God's chosen people" (this element is very powerful to many fundamentalist Christians here in the States)

I see little basic difference between the Nazi goals of Lebensraum and the Manifest Destiny of the United States.
The reservations weren't concentration camps, but then again concentration camps really weren't possible in the 19th century. For example, who knows what a figure like Andrew Jackson would have done if he could have gassed the Cherokee rather than merely forcing them on the Trail of Tears. Then there's that little issue of slavery and Jim Crow...

I'm not pointing this out to trash my country, I'm pointing this out because American triumphalism about World War 2 is still very stong, and Americans still have very negative stereotypes about Germans. Ask the average American about Germans or Germany and the first thing out of their mouths is "Nazi." The History channel is non-stop WW2. This gets on my nerves. The Nazis commited terrible crimes, but we shouldn't act as if Germany is the only country that has done evil things. If I recall correctly, falsely accusing Germany for being the single nation responsible for a terrible tragedy was one of the causes of the rise of Nazism. Americans are too willing to try and take the moral high ground, especially when it comes to the Holocaust. I think we need to evaluate our own failures before so quickly condemning others.

(BTW, France probably has the most mild history of a world power, but they still dominated a colonial empire, participated in slavery, and ignited a continent wide war all within the past 210 years.)