Danish embassy invaded - Part II

[Pekka]

LOTM, absolutely. He has gotten the most of it, and he has never bended over.

germanos, yeah, they weren't part of some schengens and pengens, but they still are west, they still are Europe, and it seems to me they have more balls than most to promote European values and stand behind what they believe in.

I was saying, that even though many papers and magazines have showed support, kind of European press type of support, some of the governments in Europe are paddling back and kissing ass every other corner to avoid trouble. That is leaving Denmark isolated. I don't know what Schengen has to do with it. We should show support for them more strongly, in gov level.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

What do the holocaust laws have to do with religion?

Oh please.

Of the close to 6 million Jews killed, many were not religious at all. The Nazis generally used a racial definition.

And the 'racial defintion' has absolutely nothing to do with a particular religion.

Not as far as the Nazis were concerned, no. ISTR they spent alot of time talking about Jew-Bolsheviks.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Pekka
germanos, yeah, they weren't part of some schengens and pengens, but they still are west, they still are Europe, and it seems to me they have more balls than most to promote European values and stand behind what they believe in.

I was saying, that even though many papers and magazines have showed support, kind of European press type of support, some of the governments in Europe are paddling back and kissing ass every other corner to avoid trouble. That is leaving Denmark isolated. I don't know what Schengen has to do with it. We should show support for them more strongly, in gov level.

Whether it's European values remains to be seen. They sure have balls, but let them not speak on my behalve.

And very few European governments are backpaddling, they were not in the Danish front-line to begin with.
It's not that the European gov's thought: This is a good occasion to isolate the Danes.
I find it well possible though that the Danish isolationist position over the past years (perhaps decades) has left them in an isolated spot to begin with.

[Pekka]

edit: this is getting pointless already.

[Pekka]

germanos, maybe, but I think that's thinking of small and petty minds. This is a bigger issue. This is about democracy, freedom of press and all that stuff. If you don't like Denmark, why woudl you let it get in a way in this? Unless of course, you are a sissie and don't believe in the values (I don't mean YOU, I mean govs).

[Imran Siddiqui]

To say denying holocaust and drawing a cartoon that might be offensive to a group of people are the same, because other one 'bashes religion' and other one denies a historical fact

Let's be clear here... denying the holocaust isn't just punishment for denying a historical fact. If that were the case, many other revisionist arguments would find themselves in trouble.

It is banned for the reason that it denies historical facts for the purpose of bashing a religion/its people. Is it any surprise that most of the literature comes from neo-Nazi groups.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by germanos


And very few European governments are backpaddling, they were not in the Danish front-line to begin with.
It's not that the European gov's thought: This is a good occasion to isolate the Danes.
I find it well possible though that the Danish isolationist position over the past years (perhaps decades) has left them in an isolated spot to begin with.

Denmark isolationistic ???? That statement certainly doesn't make any sense. We wouldn't survive for long if that was the case. Why do you think we are a rich country; have have the second largest merchant fleet in the world (the largest single shipping company is danish) ; having soldiers stationed in hot spots across the world the last 40 years or so, not to mention EU /UN activites ? Thats because we are everything else than isolationistic.

You mention the schengen and euro (and forgot the EU army and one more I can't recall at the moment), hasn't anything to do with isolationism, just that we don't want to participate.

Whether it's European values remains to be seen. They sure have balls, but let them not speak on my behalve.

Uhm, don't wan't to - hope you have the balls to speak for yourselves

[germanos]

Originally posted by Pekka
germanos, maybe, but I think that's thinking of small and petty minds. This is a bigger issue. This is about democracy, freedom of press and all that stuff. If you don't like Denmark, why woudl you let it get in a way in this? Unless of course, you are a sissie and don't believe in the values (I don't mean YOU, I mean govs).

If the gov's thought: the Danes screwed us on 'Schengen' (= free travel between subscribing countries for ALL (thus a visum for NL is also a visum for France etc.)) and the Euro, so let's screw them back now that we've finally found a good excuse...: Sure, that would be petty and small minds.
I've no indication this has played a role: I do know however that Denmark has been stearing clear of the EU whenever they could. If anything, Denmark has been trying to get a much looser affiliation to the EU, that itself has been stearing towards closer integration of its member states.
For all I care, the Danes have had a sensible approach for this. They should however not be surprised it has left them more isolated and on their own as a result.

Re: the bigger issue:
It's easy to shout all those big words. If you bring up democracy (apart from the freedom of speech issue) I will say (and have said): respect.
Freedom of speech will only bear fruit if respect is shown.
Democracy will only bear fruit if it's looking to get the largest majority (consensus) possible (instead of just making sure you get the 1/2 + 1 vote)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

To say denying holocaust and drawing a cartoon that might be offensive to a group of people are the same, because other one 'bashes religion' and other one denies a historical fact

Let's be clear here... denying the holocaust isn't just punishment for denying a historical fact. If that were the case, many other revisionist arguments would find themselves in trouble.

It is banned for the reason that it denies historical facts for the purpose of bashing a religion/its people. Is it any surprise that most of the literature comes from neo-Nazi groups.

I would suggest that denying the holocaust is illegal in Germany because the acceptance of guilt for the holocaust was a key part of the post war project of getting Germans to turn completetly away from the Nazi regime, and to accept the Bundesrepublik as the only possible legitimate regime in then West Germany. Denial of the holocaust was potentially the basis for the revival of a form of politics which, as far the government was concerned, was not merely offensive to minorities, but was potentially a threat to the regime. and whose even partial revival would renew fears of German aggression.

But if you really want to discuss the motives and meanings of Germanys laws, I suggest a new thread appropriately labeled, so that Germans, who know more about their country and its laws than you or i do, can respond.

[germanos]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Denmark isolationistic ???? That statement certainly doesn't make any sense.

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Denmark was not bound by multi-lateral treaties.
Over the past 20 years, Denmark has taken a more isolationistic stance (as in: more turning towards itself as to the outside world).
It's just a personal observation, I have no knowledge to the history of Denmark before that .

Offcourse Denmark cannot afford to be isolationist, but that does not mean people don't long for it.

Trading around the world doesn't mean one cannot be isolationist: its perfectly fine to export your stuff, but raise tariff walls for import. (disclaimer: not a trait the Danes have a monopoly on )

All I'm saying is that Denmark has distanced itself from European integration, and since it has nowhere else to turn to, it de facto results in an isolationist policy.

Offcourse I'm using a hyperbole to get my point across

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I would suggest that denying the holocaust is illegal in Germany because the acceptance of guilt for the holocaust was a key part of the post war project of getting Germans to turn completetly away from the Nazi regime, and to accept the Bundesrepublik as the only possible legitimate regime in then West Germany. Denial of the holocaust was potentially the basis for the revival of a form of politics which, as far the government was concerned, was not merely offensive to minorities, but was potentially a threat to the regime. and whose even partial revival would renew fears of German aggression.

But if you really want to discuss the motives and meanings of Germanys laws, I suggest a new thread appropriately labeled, so that Germans, who know more about their country and its laws than you or i do, can respond.

That's a weak ass argument for, say, denying David Irving access to the entire country. Does Germany think he's going to be a threat to the German regime? Hell, part of it was probably to stop anyone even thinking about Nazi Germany (I'd say mostly for shame rather than actual threat to the government), but a great deal was to ban the sort of anti-semitism of the Nazi years because of its offensiveness.

Holocaust revisionists today use their theories to slam Jews. The continued acceptance, nay embracing, of those laws are not for protection of the regime from latent Hitler youth.

And, of course, France passed its Gayssot Amendment well after World War II and really was in no threat of neo-Nazis overturning the French government.

[BlackCat]

@germanos : Talking about isolationism and ignorance of what is happening in the world - you might find it appropriate to be more ... uhmmm ... up to date

http://www.jm.dk/wimpdoc.asp?page=dept&objno=44455

[germanos]

Originally posted by BlackCat
@germanos : Talking about isolationism and ignorance of what is happening in the world - you might find it appropriate to be more ... uhmmm ... up to date

http://www.jm.dk/wimpdoc.asp?page=dept&objno=44455

Damn, time is closing in on me
(funny how old things stick to the mind, no?)

(my Danish is not that great, but I gather that Denmark joined 'Schengen' in 2001)

Nevertheless, do you disagree with the notion that at the moment Denmark (=gov't) is more busy to keep the nation away from the Big Brussel Burocratic Brother then to participate in the European Integration (tm)?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


That's a weak ass argument for, say, denying David Irving access to the entire country. Does Germany think he's going to be a threat to the German regime? Hell, part of it was probably to stop anyone even thinking about Nazi Germany (I'd say mostly for shame rather than actual threat to the government), but a great deal was to ban the sort of anti-semitism of the Nazi years because of its offensiveness.

Holocaust revisionists today use their theories to slam Jews. The continued acceptance, nay embracing, of those laws are not for protection of the regime from latent Hitler youth.

And, of course, France passed its Gayssot Amendment well after World War II and really was in no threat of neo-Nazis overturning the French government.

Thread jacks are fine and all that, but if you intend to have detailed discussion of the motivations for the laws of a country other than Denmark, you or I really should start another thread, with the countrys name in the title. That way we're more likely to get some real info.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by germanos


Damn, time is closing in on me
(funny how old things stick to the mind, no?)

(my Danish is not that great, but I gather that Denmark joined 'Schengen' in 2001)

Nevertheless, do you disagree with the notion that at the moment Denmark (=gov't) is more busy to keep the nation away from the Big Brussel Burocratic Brother then to participate in the European Integration (tm)?

Norways not even in the EU. Are you less concerned about Norway?