Chavez: man of the masses, protector of the weak, racist

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Mercator


Maybe. But then he also said "those who killed Bolivar". Why didn't he just say the Spaniards? But no-one's popping any veins over that.

Uh, lets see, have the Spaniards been persecuted for hundreds of years as "bolivar killers"?

Dont think so.

Christ killers. Such a lovely phrase.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I tihnk he purposefully was playing off anti-semite feeligns

no matter what is personal ones are.. or what he 'meant'

this isn't a good tihng

JM

I agree. It's very convenient. When someone hears "they killed Christ", they know what group you are refering to, and no, they don't think of the Romans or the rich.

[Sava]

the only reason for the ambiguity would be to cosy up to Iran

it's not as if there is a Jewish population in Venezuela that Chavez is trying to alienate or disenfranchise... and what would be the benefit of riling up anti-semetic feelings in Venezuela when there are no Jews there?

The only possible benefit for Chavez is to score points with Iran.

And if he wasn't saying those things in order to do that, then this is just a misunderstanding and something that is being blown totally out of proportion.

But hey, if morons want to run around crying WOLF because of this, whatever...

I'm tired of trying to shed some light on this situation. Dumbasses are going to believe what they want to believe.

Boers and Bernstein are on now!!! WEEEE

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sava
the only reason for the ambiguity would be to cosy up to Iran

it's not as if there is a Jewish population in Venezuela that Chavez is trying to alienate or disenfranchise... and what would be the benefit of riling up anti-semetic feelings in Venezuela when there are no Jews there?

Uh, to get folks with antisemitic feelings to like, you know, vote for him?

What makes you think that everyone who arouses antisemitism - or for that matter, racism, or homophobia - is really interested in hurting Jews, or racial minorities, or gays?

You ever hear of Karl Lueger? He was a Catholic populist politician in turn of the century Austria. He accused his socialist and liberal enemies of being dominated by Jews. He used antisemitic rhetoric. When one of his supporters asked why he accepted funds from certain Jewish businessmen (who apparently disliked the socialists, were on the outs withe liberals - despite many of the liberals being Jews - and who may have wanted special treatment from Lueger) he replied "I decide who is a Jew" Antisemitism was not heartfelt for Lueger, and he didnt intend to disenfranchise the Jews - it was a cynical tool to attain political power (which succeeded, as he was elected Mayor of Vienna) unfortunately much more intense people, like Adoph Hitler, were influenced by his rhetoric.

[Sava]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Uh, to get folks with antisemitic feelings to like, you know, vote for him?

and there is a large group of anti-semetic people in Venezuela who would normally not be voting for Chavez, but will suddenly vote for him because of this speech?

Venezuela... the country that is 98% Catholic...

wouldn't anti-semetism be effective in a country with a Jewish population?

sorry, I just don't see the "anti-semetic rhetoric speeches" as being a strategy to get votes

try again

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Sava

and there is a large group of anti-semetic people in Venezuela who would normally not be voting for Chavez, but will suddenly vote for him because of this speech?

Dislike of jews as christ killers was a long time theme in popular Catholicism. And it doesnt have to be a large group - any votes will do - and it doesnt have to be as simple as they hear one speech, and go aha, time to vote for Chavez. Its more like the rhetoric rings true to them, and then they listen more closely to the rest of his speech, and are more sympathetic to his message "the jews killed christ, the spanish killed bolivar, the jews and the spanish and the rich and the americans have stolen from the poor, the poor need chavez"

Venezuela... the country that is 98% Catholic...


wouldn't anti-semetism be effective in a country with a Jewish population?

You dont need Jews around to have antisemitism. Some of the places in the US with the most antisemitism have the fewest Jews. Antisemitism, esp when focused on the gospel story, isnt necessarily a reaction to the actual presence of Jews.

[lord of the mark]

some context

http://www.forward.com/main/article.php?ref=perelman200412081118

"Venezuelan Community on Edge After Police Raid Jewish School
By Marc Perelman
December 10, 2004

When scores of armed police showed up early on Monday, November 29, at the Hebraica community center and Jewish school in Caracas to search for evidence related to the murder of a prosecutor, several years of quiet anguish over the deteriorating situation of Jews in Venezuela finally boiled over.

Venezuelan and American Jewish leaders blasted the government of firebrand President Hugo Chavez for forcing the evacuation of some 1,500 children and for appearing to link the Jewish community to a high-profile murder. The raid, which was ordered by a judge on the suspicion that explosives and documents related to the killing of the prosecutor might be hidden in the center, eventually proved "fruitless," police said.

A local Jewish leader said that while this was the first time the Chavez administration had acted directly against the 18,000-member Jewish community, the climate had in fact been steadily worsening in the past several years, with anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli rhetoric appearing in the pro-government media and demonstrations.

"This has been growing, little by little," the official said on condition of anonymity. "Even though we cannot draw a direct line to the government, there is an obvious tolerance towards aggressive attitudes towards the Jewish community."

While the mainstream media and various politicians quickly protested after the police operation, the administration was slow to react publicly. Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel contacted two community leaders to voice his opposition to the raid, adding that the decision was made solely by the investigating judge. But no official statement came until the next Monday, when Communication and Information Minister Andres Izarra said "emphatically" that the operation should not be seen as aimed at the Jewish community.

Meanwhile, unnamed government officials were quoted as saying the operation showed that no one was "untouchable" in Venezuela. Several days before the raid, an article in the pro-government daily VEA said that the method used in the murder was similar to one used by Israeli security forces to eliminate Palestinian leaders, prompting rumors of possible Mossad involvement.

The slain prosecutor, Danilo Anderson, was killed November 18 in a car bombing. At the time, he had been looking into the opposition's role in an aborted 2002 coup against Chavez. The killing prompted a national outcry and vows by the Chavez administration to hunt down the culprits.

Venezuela, with 24 million people, is South America's fifth most populous nation and has a tradition of stable democracy.

Chavez, first elected in a landslide in 1998, is a fiery leftist and anti-globalist at odds with the business community and with much of the hemisphere's leadership. Government leaders regularly express solidarity with the Palestinians, most recently issuing a laudatory statement after the death of Yasser Arafat. Chavez himself was visiting Iran at the time of the school raid.

Anti-American sentiments have run high since the Bush administration appeared to support the short-lived 2002 coup. Recently declassified CIA documents show that Washington knew about coup planning by opposition leaders and disgruntled military officers but shared little with Chavez.

More recently, Chavez won a recall referendum last August. Several Jewish observers said that some government resentment was fueled by the perception that a sizable number of Jews sided with the opposition.

Local Jewish leaders now describe a rash of harshly anti-Israel and sometimes antisemitic articles published by far-left media outlets since the vote. Antisemitic and anti-Israeli graffiti were scrawled on the walls of the main Sephardic synagogue in Caracas during pro-government demonstrations this year and last. Groups connected to Chavez signed several of the slogans, according to pictures seen by the Forward.

More disturbingly, Jewish officials said that suspected casing of several Jewish institutions had been caught on tape by security cameras over the past several years ?? some predating the Chavez era.

For the past few months, communal officials refused to go public, arguing that since the community's relations with the government had not reached the stage of confrontation, airing accusations could prompt retaliation.

They changed their stance after the school incident. The main Jewish representative body, the Confederacion de asociaciones israelitas de Venezuela, issued a statement voicing indignation about the raid. American Jewish groups quickly followed suit. B'nai B'rith International sent a letter to the Venezuelan ambassador in Washington, asking for an explanation and assurances that such acts would not reoccur.

Venezuelan Jewish leaders privately fret about lack of government oversight in crucial areas such as immigration. They note that the son of the Ba'ath Party representative in Venezuela now is the deputy head of the immigration department. The man, Tarreck al Assimi, is a former student leftist leader affiliated with Chavez's Bolivarian Revolution.

An American official said those security lapses were causing fears of potential abuse by terrorist organizations. Over the last decade, particularly after the September 11, 2001, attacks, American officials have warned about the presence of Islamic terrorist cells in Venezuela, especially in the free-trade zone of Isla Margarita. As relations with Chavez soured, U.S. officials have questioned Venezuela's commitment to fighting terror, at times implying possible cooperation between the far left and Islamic radicals."

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


ACTUALLY, if he is speaking about plutocrats, or Romans, there is absolutely nothing abhorrent with that quote.

The rich people of today, crucified christ? And deserve the kind of punishment that antisemites traditionally gave to Jews?

Er, no.

And theft is the cause of why wealth is as concentrated in the world as it is? Most of the wealth in the world is skyscrapers, factories, etc - not natural resources. Countries that stop blaming others and actually develop their economies and open to international trade have done far better than those who blame others. Even if its NOT antisemitism, its scapegoating, of a vicious kind, that will do Venezuala little good.

[Sava]

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


The rich people of today, crucified christ?

Well, they're for sure not living in the spirit of the man who said said to a rich man he had to give away all his wealth to enter the kingdom of God.


Now, I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing.

[Agathon]

In any thread displaying persecution mania, LOTM will be there.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
It was a little more complicated then that and you know it.

Only according to people who had an agenda against the Jews and wanted the Romans to ease up on persecuting their fellows Christians. Why should we take their word for it? After all, they pretty much lied about everything else.

[chequita guevara]

In my studies of Latin America, anti-semitism is found primarily among the ruling classes, and not the masses. So it's unlikely that it's meant as rhetoric for the masses. That doesn't mean that Chavez's government isn't turning against the Jews. It's entirely possible it is.

As for statements about Israel and Arafat, Arafat is seen as a national liberationist by the vast majority of people in the world. He was embraced by Nelson Mandela, and Mandela was right to do so. The plight of the Palestinian people was and is horrible, and Israel has been a vile and evil nation to them. Remember, the indigenous people of Latin America feel a solidarity with the oppressed indigenous people around the world, including the natives of Palestine.

Israel's role in Latin America is not a proud one. It is linked to several of the most evil Latin American governments of the 1980s, including, ironically enough, the antisemetic government of Guatemala under Rios Mott. Butchers and tortourers were trained by the Israelis, and armed by them (at the U.S.'s behest, since Congress had tied Reagan's hand somewhat). The Latin American left has plenty of reason to hate Israel, aside from its oppression of its native population. Israel's an evil country. The fact that it's a democracy only makes it's people complicit in it's crimes.

[Last Conformist]

Maybe so, but complaining about "those who murdered Christ" would be an absolutely retarded way to refer to Israel.

[chequita guevara]

I doubt he was refering to Israel, given the context of the statements, though it is possible that LotM is correct in how Chavez intended it to be used.