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  • #61
    Originally posted by Pekka
    There are weird things around Jesus that should be otherwise if he was to be son of God, to make more sense. First of all, why don't we have any of his writings? I'm sure he must of written things. To say he wasn't much of a writing man, that's more weird than the opposite would be.

    Also, I find it weird that Christians often times goes exactly the opposite way of teachings of the Christ, I find it weird that there is no mention of the dinosauruses in the bible even if some dufus claims there is. There is none. God created earth and all that in 7 days. So.. where are the dynosauruses mentioned and that life before humans? Nowhere. Then again, people back then didn't know about dynos. People who wrote the bible.

    That's one weirdness more.

    What I'm saying is. Not only does bible need modernisation in forms of adding more gospels to it, it also lacks as a religion when we talk about modern days. Not only that, one of the biggest points of the whole hippie cruice of Jesus has totally been left out of the action of Christians, those who usually are more loud than others, and that is to tolerate others, and to co-operate and stuff. We don't even co-operate in this religion with each other. We have separate churches, tons of them. Some believe you should wear jelly on your head on Tuesdays, some believe you should probably cut your willy off for you own good when you are 3, some teach all the other Christians have gotten it wrong, and in some you just make a considerable money contribution and hallelujah you are a good man.

    What I'm sayign is, if Christians are literally the followers of the Christ, we have failed miserably. We aren't following the Christ at all here. I mean some are. And some who are loud, they are following too. But some fundamentals of the whole thing has been lost, and between all the arguing if we should walk backward every other Saturday, I mean who cares? Is that REALLY important? Christianity in different countries differ.

    And why does the churches carry the ultimate power of saying how things oughta be done so you do it right? If I believe in Jesus, that should be enough, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops the church makes up. And why can't I criticize the churches and their actions, hypocricy of it, and be the real follower. We need to look around and clean our own base first before throwing any rocks. That should be the most Christian act a member can do. If someone has a problem with it, I think they have lost their ways already.
    This post is real confused. People have different interpretations of the Bible. Since this is generally true of any message, that shouldn't surprise you. Also, the Bible is not, and was never meant to be (I beleive) a work of science. What place does dinosaurs have in telling you about God?

    I also encourage different groups to beleive in different things. In something as complicated as the Bible is, people need to be allowed to have different interprations. That is why we are all christians, but we have different denomiations. And I do think that it is evil when the denominations fight. Recognising that we are brothers/sisters in Christ should be important (this is something my own denomination has been week on at times). I do, however, think it is good to band together in denomiations. That gives your ideas support, and there can be a bit of difference caused by the denominations (SDAs are very different then Lutherans or Catholics, and are much more similiar to Methodists).

    As to why Christ didn't have writings.. I am not sure. Maybe there were some (many theologians beleive in a manuscrpt of His quotes that were used by the authors of Mathew, Mark, and Luke). One possibility is that God wanted to the whole Bible to be studied, while if there was a book written by Jesus, many would only study that. Since interpreations are made by the reader (as well as the writer), there would be a lot less Bible.. unless Christ spent all His time writing.. But I admit I don't know.

    As far as the other gospels, there are reasons why they are not included. Basically, back a long time ago when people were arguing theology, those groups (which became christianity) agreed on some things (like the divinity of Christ). Gospels that were from other groups (like the gnostics..) weren't included. Now I admit that that is not an argument for the other gospels to be false. It is an argument for the other gospels not to be taken as canon by christians though.

    I agree that many who claim to be christians aren't following Christ. Christ cared for His fellow man, the poor, the sick, those who needed help. Many 'christians' think that those are just the natural results of sin, and if the people repent that God will help them. They ignore the fact that Christ cared for the sick and poor. And that God works most often through people. Also many 'christians' are filled with hate for different religions and for homosexuals. Hate is very unchristianlike (is a sin). So yes, christians should work on themselves.

    As far as it goes, God asked us to obey his laws. Since I beleive that one of Gods laws is that we should keep that Sabbath holy, I will try to do so. Keeping His laws is not silly legalism, like your example (some other SDA practices very well might be).

    Jon Miller
    Jon Miller-
    I AM.CANADIAN
    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Sava
      Jon Miller, do you believe in Adam and Eve as the literal truth of creation?
      Could be, could be a metaphor. Scientifically the earth is definitely ~4 billion years old.

      Jon Miller
      Jon Miller-
      I AM.CANADIAN
      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Odin


        Go back to your post, Sargent. That's an order!



        YOU WILL ADDRESS ME AS SIR YOU WORTHLESS PIECE OF DOG SNOT!!!



        <------ MAJOR PWNAGE


        To us, it is the BEAST.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Jon Miller


          Could be, could be a metaphor. Scientifically the earth is definitely ~4 billion years old.

          Jon Miller
          do you believe that Jesus actually performed miracles, rose from the dead, all that stuff?
          To us, it is the BEAST.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Pekka
            right, right, but there are bound to be more so I'm interested hearing them out beacuse I think in Christianity, that's the one single most important question so it's worth pondering more.... Arguments can be of other nature too. They can be against Jesus being immortal. Prove the premise to be wrong. Or at least come close to proving.
            Dude, that is impossible (proving or disproving). I have been seeing these arguments for over a decade, and have seen writings that have shown that these arguments have went on for millenia.

            Logically, I think that there is no proving/disproving.

            JM
            Jon Miller-
            I AM.CANADIAN
            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Sava


              do you believe that Jesus actually performed miracles, rose from the dead, all that stuff?
              Yes.

              Jon Miller
              Jon Miller-
              I AM.CANADIAN
              GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

              Comment


              • #67
                The expulsion of Adam and Eve from Eden seems to me to be a legend stemming from the desertification of the ME and Sahara (desertification = the flaming sword that kept them from going back into Eden)

                Comment


                • #68
                  Right, and why do we need different interpretations, because we choose what sounds the best personally for different folks. And then fight each other over it. That sounds more like a separation than unifying to me. The thing is, most of us disagrees over those things. Hey, I bet according to some hardcore church I go to hell no matter what I do in the future for my past. Some would say that's not really true.

                  So, they all believe in Jesus. Yet they have MORE NUANCES that makes all the difference in it in their own minds. And fight over it. Yeah... that's just what Jesus wanted from his followers I'm sure. Meaning, the true spirit and message has been lost a long time ago.

                  And if he truly was son of God, and that makes his word heavy, then we are either all lost, or all saved.
                  In da butt.
                  "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                  THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                  "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Jon Miller


                    Yes.

                    Jon Miller
                    How come you believe that one part of the Bible is truth but another part is not (i.e. metaphor)?

                    How can you trust that any of it can be trusted to be true at all?

                    Do you believe in Noah's Ark? That all animals on the planet (including dinosaurs) were put on the ark?


                    Did you know that the scripture involving Jesus were not written until decades after Jesus was alleged to exist?

                    How reliable does this make the Bible as a source?

                    Let me ask you another question.

                    Would you trust a newspaper report that was written today about an event that occured say 60 years ago by a reporter who was not a witness to the events? And to make things more interesting, lets say the events in question involved some kind of supernatural events, no living witnesses and no physical evidence?

                    Would you be compelled to believe such a report?

                    Jusk asking.

                    Can you answer my questions honestly?
                    To us, it is the BEAST.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      So you are saying we should all be the same? That is not the humans He created

                      He gave us free will. And that allows us to be different. Allowing people to see things different ways is important thing to learn about christianity. With that comes allowing people to be wrong.

                      Why didn't God just force us all to worship him? Because He wanted to allow us to have choice. To be able to choose him. To be able to choose right and wrong. If He gave that choice to us, shouldn't we also give that choice to our fellow man?

                      Jon Miller
                      Jon Miller-
                      I AM.CANADIAN
                      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I'm not saying we should be all the same. I'm saying we shouldn't be fighting over it. I think that's important, not fighting because we are different. Something he must have agreed with, and in fact encouraged us to do.

                        Yet, we just rise our flags high and beat each other everywhere we can, even amongst ourselves, between churches and stuff.

                        THAT is the biggest single reason why I think many churches around the world are not worthy of being a real church, because they go the opposite direction instead of what Jesus taught. If I was Jesus, I'd be pretty pissed off, and like General, I'd call up all my subordinates and leaders of those fractions and make them responsible for the inner problems that I spesifically taught against, like the whole point was that, and then you follow me and do the exact opposite? What was teh point to begin with then, uh.. I'd do that.. I'd call the officers and NCOs and yell at them like a badass. Lots of passes revoked.
                        In da butt.
                        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Jon Miller

                          Why didn't God just force us all to worship him? Because He wanted to allow us to have choice. To be able to choose him. To be able to choose right and wrong. If He gave that choice to us, shouldn't we also give that choice to our fellow man?



                          that's right...


                          CHOOSE ME OR BURN IN HELL


                          some choice

                          that should be proof enough that christianity is a false religion... because no just and moral God would ever create such a "choice"
                          To us, it is the BEAST.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            right, and that is the interpretation of men as well.
                            In da butt.
                            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Sava
                              CHOOSE ME OR BURN IN HELL
                              It does seem a little bit petulant, doesn't it...
                              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                              Stadtluft Macht Frei
                              Killing it is the new killing it
                              Ultima Ratio Regum

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Sava


                                How come you believe that one part of the Bible is truth but another part is not (i.e. metaphor)?

                                How can you trust that any of it can be trusted to be true at all?

                                Do you believe in Noah's Ark? That all animals on the planet (including dinosaurs) were put on the ark?


                                Did you know that the scripture involving Jesus were not written until decades after Jesus was alleged to exist?

                                How reliable does this make the Bible as a source?

                                Let me ask you another question.

                                Would you trust a newspaper report that was written today about an event that occured say 60 years ago by a reporter who was not a witness to the events? And to make things more interesting, lets say the events in question involved some kind of supernatural events, no living witnesses and no physical evidence?

                                Would you be compelled to believe such a report?

                                Jusk asking.

                                Can you answer my questions honestly?
                                I didn't say that I thought the other part was a metaphor. I just said it could be (wouldn't disturb my beleifs at all).

                                Christianity is based upon the idea, which is based upon an interpration of the Bible, that:
                                1 We are all sinners. This either happened as described in Genesis, or Genesis is a metaphor for it happening in some early epoch of the earth.
                                2 The result of sin is death. This also is based in the OT.
                                3 Jesus Christ died in our place. He took our sin (everyones, the whole world over, for all time before His death, and all time afterwards) and died in our place.
                                4 Since Christ was God, was perfect, He rose again, death was defeated. The debt was paid for.

                                There are other interpretations of the bible. And some who call themselves christians have them (I know some theologians who don't beleive in the resurrection, and don't agree with Paul.. I don't consider them christians, they are in another religion based upon the bible).

                                What really happened, as beleived by christians, I posted up above (although poorly). The rest is important, otherwise it wouldn't be in that holy book. What is metaphor (and some definitely is metaphor) and what is history, is a matter of interpration.

                                Now one could interpret the Bible so that the ressurection was also metaphor. But then you leave the realm of christianity (although you might still be a member of a religion of the book, which both judaism and islamism are)

                                The gospels being written 60 years after Christs death is the absolute latest they could have been written. That would suggest that they were written earlier. Also, we know that Paul lived earlier, and he also wrote about the events of Christs life (in fact, it is from him christianity gets most of its theology). Additionally, one of the gospels (John) claims to be written by an eyewitness.

                                The point being, that 10 years after an event, the entire story is unlikely to be made up (I think that those who don't beleive that a person called Jesus ever existed are being extremely obtuse). Now I admit there could be embellishment, but Christians dont' beleive there to be. People were becoming Christians at a fast pace within 10 years of Christs death. While this proves nothing (note I claim nottihng can be proved), it also does not give evidence against it.

                                Jon Miller
                                Jon Miller-
                                I AM.CANADIAN
                                GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                                Comment

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