Call for ecumenical throwdown!

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Kontiki


Circular.....logic......brain.....close to.......exploding.....

I managed to avoid posting something like this, but your post broke my resolve.

-Arrian

[Pekka]

well I am a scientist you know. Maybe a doctor in x years. I should be able to tell if there was a logical error, or circular logic.

Now, I know how it's displayed. It makes sense, if the one part is true. If it is true, hey, hallelujah and let's roll. But we should be more skeptic about it. If we have faith, we have no reason to not do it.

I know it goes that Jesus was son of God because he said so. What makes him different is that he performed miracles. Even few times, so he couldn't have been an ordinary man, miracles of caliber that they truyl were miracles. No normal man could do them like that. And the people saw the miracles, and Jesus taught them more, and because of the miracles, basically that's why it's true, the part 'because I say so'.

Ok. So why only 4 gospels? I know that true non-believers could never be persuaded to believe it even if they had thousand gospels to read. But why only 4? And why those four were the ones that makes Jesus to be son of God, many other gospels don't, or so I've heard. That's right, because church basically CHOSE what to include, so they were the most biased to begin with. If the writers of the four gospels were semi biased, the makers of bible the collection were hugely biased.

Other religions have also viewed these gospels, and other gospels as well, but they are not convinced. From theoretical poitn of view, they are not convinced, and they are the majority. So surely it can be explained by 'because it's logical'.

Because with this set of logics we could be now worshipping a bag full of cabbage. If I was taught this was the way, and given similar circular logic proof, I would be worshipping bag full of cabbages. This is why it makes less sense than it should.

Of all the teachings, it contradicts the teachings of Jesus. I believe we are all created equal, some of us have different appearance, different features and skin of colour, but what combines us that in front of God we are all equal, so why don't we all have equal opportunity to believe in Jesus? To say we have, well it's not true now is it. This would say that we are shown a red carpet to salvation while others have to risk everything on a gamble, that we are right and others are wrong, abandon their faith and join our ranks. A whole different story for other people that is.

Now, if Jesus was immortal, then he was son of God. If he performed those miracles, then it's more likely he was that immortal man. Why only 4 gospels? Thousands and thousands must of been part of some miracle, I know most of them weren't scholars or had the ability to write, but why only 4 included in the bible.

Because the gospels are OUR inheritage to know these things were true, so why only 4. If those miracles happened as they are described, man, I'd assume we'd have more than that. With this rate, I'm sure Kim Il Yong will have more than 4 gospels saying he is immortal and here is the proof.

We should, in all fairness, have our memories and education about religions erased from our brains, then study ALL the gospels about Jesus, and then see if it should be something we should consider worthy of faith.

WIth only 4 gospels,. it's still kind of a long reach, and beacuse people say so, that's not only weird, it's stupid. Lots of people say lots of things.

Because basically there's only TWO ways that a person can be sure of his faith. One, to recieve better data about the happenings around Jesus and Jesus himself. Second, to recieve a sign.

I haven't had that sign, I think, so I have to find more data as of now. I don't say I'm saying Jesus was a bum, I'm saying that right now I CHOOSE to believe. It's a bit different from real faith, to have that, I'd need to know beyond any doubts, and to pursue that, I think is a good thing.

[Jon Miller]

It all comes down to having faith.

And that is a choice.

JM

[Odin]

Blind faith is stupid, throw rocks at it.

[Kuciwalker]

tldr @ thread

[Pekka]

exactly. It's not just matter of faith, or I have mountain of cabbages for you to worship.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
It all comes down to having faith.

And that is a choice.

JM

if it is purely about a choice, then why do children need to be brainwashed into believing religion?

how strong a following would religion have if children were not allowed to be exposed to religion until age 18?

seriously...

if it is a choice to be made, why not let people make it when they are intelligent enough to do so?

let's educate people in secular schools, and then at age 18, we can expose them to religion... all religions... at the same time...

and they can choose whatever they want to believe in... or nothing at all if they want to...

I think that is a good idea

[Odin]

Originally posted by Sava

how strong a following would religion have if children were not allowed to be exposed to religion until age 18?

This is impossible, kids absorb the culture (and thus the religion) around them, you can't keep kids from religion unless every adult around them is not religious, which is impossible.

[Wycoff]

Pekka, you're taking the first step towards becoming a non-believer. Every single apostate has worked their way through this logic puzzle. The ultimate answer: you just have to have faith. Since I see that as the ultimate cop-out, I do not believe that Chirst is God incarnate and, thus, I am not a Christian.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Wycoff
Pekka, you're taking the first step towards becoming a non-believer. Every single apostate has worked their way through this logic puzzle. The ultimate answer: you just have to have faith. Since I see that as the ultimate cop-out, I do not believe that Chirst is God incarnate and, thus, I am not a Christian.

[Pekka]

Uh, what, you think all Christians just have blind faith and never think these things? Doesn't make them non-believers exactly. Sometimes you just need to get some more grounds to your faith, that's all. Then again, if you can't get re-affirmed, then you should move on to other things.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Pekka
Uh, what, you think all Christians just have blind faith and never think these things?

No, I'm sure that any thinking Christian ponders these thoughts at one time or another. However, those that decide that the faith makes sense and decide to stick with it are those that are satisfied with the ultimate answer to your question: you just have to have faith. I'm not saying that those people with faith are stupid, I'm just saying that they are satisfied with an answer that doesn't satisfy me.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Pekka
exactly. It's not just matter of faith, or I have mountain of cabbages for you to worship.

Your mountain of cabbages do not have the properties of anything I would want to worship.

Also, my experiences (while not intially what started me beleiving in Jesus Christ) have supported my beleif. It is much stronger then it once was.

JOn Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Sava


if it is purely about a choice, then why do children need to be brainwashed into believing religion?

how strong a following would religion have if children were not allowed to be exposed to religion until age 18?

seriously...

if it is a choice to be made, why not let people make it when they are intelligent enough to do so?

let's educate people in secular schools, and then at age 18, we can expose them to religion... all religions... at the same time...

and they can choose whatever they want to believe in... or nothing at all if they want to...

I think that is a good idea

So children should also not be taught not to kill, or to be tolerant of others, or all the other moral things (most) parents teach their children? Religion is but an additional thing that many parents teach their children. Just liking playing with others.

Also, in those areas where religion was persecuted, once religion was free again, saw a huge increase in religiousness or spiritualness. I would imagine that your enforced ignorance would soon be replaced by myrad of religions and spiritualist ideas. Man's psych seems to be inherently religious or spiritual in nature. Now I would agree that a lot of these religons or spiritualist ideas would not be christianity.

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Pekka
Uh, what, you think all Christians just have blind faith and never think these things?

Most of us have thought about these things ages ago. I read books about ideas like that in this thread over a decade ago. I chose to beleive in God, and I chose Christianity, because I wanted to. Now I agree that I was brought up in a Christian household, so I was biased that way. But only one member in my immediate family is currently practicing besides me.. and my beleives are very different then the norm for SDAs..

Jon Miller