Call for ecumenical throwdown!

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Sava





that's right...


CHOOSE ME OR BURN IN HELL


some choice

that should be proof enough that christianity is a false religion... because no just and moral God would ever create such a "choice"

I dont' beleive in a literal hell. There is only like a couple of mentions of hell in the bible, and they all appear to be metaphor. In fact, there are others things in the bible which suggest that hell doesn't exist.

What happens of you dont' accept Christs free gift, the gift of His life, is that when you die you cease to exist. just like what you likely beleive.

JM

[Sava]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


I dont' beleive in a literal hell. There is only like a couple of mentions of hell in the bible, and they all appear to be metaphor. In fact, there are others things in the bible which suggest that hell doesn't exist.

What happens of you dont' accept Christs free gift, the gift of His life, is that when you die you cease to exist. just like what you likely beleive.

JM

still

it doesn't matter

God is still bribing people for worship

the only way a true God would work is if there would be no consequences, positive or negative... for loving him...

we would choose to love him of our own FREE WILL

NO STRINGS ATTACHED

that is why Christianity (and every other MANMADE RELIGION) is false and should not be believed in

[Jon Miller]

There is no proof of heaven, or God. Therefore there is a choice. Do we beleive in Him? Do we accept the gift of His Son?

There is no evidence to base our choice on. There is only His word.

The wages of sin are death, permanent nothingness. However, if Christ has taken our sin from us, then we won't cease to exist. It is cause and effect. It is open to every person, everybody has a chance to accept His gift.

The consequences are in us. Choose to distance ourselves from Him, and become nothing. Or choose to stay in His light. They are natural consequences, as natural as electrons repelling or gravity attracting.

Jon Miller

[Odin]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


1 We are all sinners. This either happened as described in Genesis, or Genesis is a metaphor for it happening in some early epoch of the earth.
2 The result of sin is death. This also is based in the OT.
3 Jesus Christ died in our place. He took our sin (everyones, the whole world over, for all time before His death, and all time afterwards) and died in our place.
4 Since Christ was God, was perfect, He rose again, death was defeated. The debt was paid for.

1. We all do stupid things out of passion, you don't need religioin to tell a person that.

2. Death is a result of old age not mattering to natural selection (the evolutionary biology is a bit complicated, so I'll spare you the lesson ).

3. Jesus was a dissident rabbi influenced by the Dead Sea Scrolls people who was executed because he threatened the power of the judaic preisthood.

[Jon Miller]

And that is another set of intrepreations. But it is not christianity.

I gave you what makes you christian.

Jon Miller

[Odin]

Also, an afterlife is impossible, there is no way it is allowed by physics or biology.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
There is no proof of heaven, or God. Therefore there is a choice. Do we beleive in Him? Do we accept the gift of His Son?

There is no evidence to base our choice on. There is only His word.

The wages of sin are death, permanent nothingness. However, if Christ has taken our sin from us, then we won't cease to exist. It is cause and effect. It is open to every person, everybody has a chance to accept His gift.

The consequences are in us. Choose to distance ourselves from Him, and become nothing. Or choose to stay in His light. They are natural consequences, as natural as electrons repelling or gravity attracting.

it is pointless to discuss anything with Jon Miller...

he recites Christian propaganda to you... nothing coherent

[Jon Miller]

That does not make it impossible, merely puts it outside of the realm of modern science. A lot of things were outside of the realm of science of 100 years ago, a lot of things are outside of the realm of science today.

I personally beleive that somethings will always be outside the realm of science.

So saying that our science right now has no explanation for heaven says nothing, other then there is no scientific reason to beleive in heaven.

And I dont' beleive in heaven, I beleive in God, and I beleive in the bible. The bible says there is a heaven (in most well reasoned interpreations) and so I think there is a heaven.

And while I hope for one, there not being one would not destroy my beleif in God.

Jon Miller
(note I don't beleive in some other, nonphysical reality... if you read the bible you will find that heaven will be the earth after the apocalypse)

[Sava]

Originally posted by Odin
Also, an afterlife is impossible, there is no way it is allowed by physics or biology.

well, I won't go so far to say there can't be other states of consciousness past death...

I can't recall anything before birth

but that doesn't mean there is nothing after death

nobody knows for sure

only one thing is for sure... every human being alive is wrong

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Sava




it is pointless to discuss anything with Jon Miller...

he recites Christian propaganda to you... nothing coherent

I rarely go to church. I rarely talk to other christians. Where do I get this propaganda?

I read the bible. I study it. I do go to church about once a month, so I guess I could get somethings from there.

But what I post is mostly what I have thought, when I was in my room reading my bible, and talking to others. I am sure that I was influenced by growing up in a christian home. And by talking to others (often agnostics, or like the theologians who don't beleive in Christ's divinity or ressurection). But it is true that my thoughts have become more real, in the years that I have not been at home (of course, most the rest of my family no longer goes to church anyway..).

Jon Miller

[Sava]

I'm not sure man... I'm not insulting you or flaming or calling you a fundie or anything... I was just commenting on the content of your posts.

[Jon Miller]

I would actually like to go to church more, to spend time with other christians more.

My beleif is fairly strong, I think. My will, my actions, my thoughts are weak. I wanted to go and help feed homeless this last sunday. Instead I slept in. I am not some great christian. I wish to be better, and I think it would help if I had any christian freinds.

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Sava
I'm not sure man... I'm not insulting you or flaming or calling you a fundie or anything... I was just commenting on the content of your posts.

I would happily admit to being a fundy. Except that everyone associates them with those *******s who hate gays, and constantly tell everyone that they are going to hell.

I do wish to be a fundy of the sort that is in Gordon Dickson's Soldier, Ask Not! (past of his childs cycle, great Sci Fi (Although he didn't complete it before his death))

Jon Miller

[Sava]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I would actually like to go to church more, to spend time with other christians more.

My beleif is fairly strong, I think. My will, my actions, my thoughts are weak. I wanted to go and help feed homeless this last sunday. Instead I slept in. I am not some great christian. I wish to be better, and I think it would help if I had any christian freinds.

Jon Miller

Well I'm glad you are happy.

Just don't tell other people they are evil for what they believe in.

Don't tell people they are evil for their lifestyles.

And you and I won't have any problems, okay?

[Jon Miller]

I call few people evil. Hitler was one.

I do say that everyone I have met is sinful. And many people are *******s (including many of my freinds, and sometimes myself).

I will also tell people that I don't think what they beleive in is right (I will tell that to atheists, and I will tell that to libertarians).

Jon Miller