Call for ecumenical throwdown!

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking


Sava knows this; it is his way of debunking Jon's assertion that "It is just a matter of choice".

It is NOT just a matter of choice!

It is. There are many different beliefs arround. Different types of christianity. Atheism, humanism, budhaism, and others.

So it is a choice. And even a biased choice (Which your choice likely is) is still a choice. If you raised a child in a home where he/she never heard about religion until the age of 18, you would be biasing that child against religion.

Still a bias.

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

This is the wrong question to ask. Like said, they believed.

They believed what? That Christ was a man, or that Christ was God? How could they possibly believe that Christ was God, after they had stolen his dead body from the tomb?

like I explained the possible scenario, them stealing the body, then the resurrection didn't happen, it would make the best of sense to claim it did.

What the Gospels say is that they hid in their houses, which makes sense. Christ died on the cross. You want to save your own butt by hiding. However, what happens to the apostles afterwards makes no sense at all, if you believe they stole the body. Not only do they proclaim that Christ has risen, they do so in a very public manner at Pentecost, and they put themselves in great personal danger by doing so.

Thanks, I never knew what Paul had to say about it.

You are very welcome Pekka. Thank the folks that taught me so well, they deserve the real credit.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Pekka


Well I didn't read the Romans as of yet, but what you say, are you saying he means that if you believe in God and follow that feeling your own way, try to do good things, then you are saved?

Isn't that like saying that salvation goes through Jesus, but not necessarily, and actually most religions in the world that have God in it the way we do, they'll be saved too?

You don't know much theology, and should read more.

But the point is that Salvation is only through Jesus. It is just that Jesus can save those who have never heard about him. It is the acceptance of the gift of salvation is required. Knowing about Jesus is not required for this.

It does help though...

Jon Miller

[Sava]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


It is. There are many different beliefs arround. Different types of christianity. Atheism, humanism, budhaism, and others.

So it is a choice. And even a biased choice (Which your choice likely is) is still a choice. If you raised a child in a home where he/she never heard about religion until the age of 18, you would be biasing that child against religion.

Still a bias.

no...

by not letting kids have sex until 18 are parents biasing kids against sex?


but people still have sex right?

You are making my point for me Jon Miller.

You are saying your religion must be taught to children because intelligent people who are not brainwashed as children are less likely to choose it.

[Jon Miller]

Pekka, not many people die and get tortured for something they beleive is a lie. If yuo beleive that the gospels are true about the early christian church, then it is unlogical to not beleive in the ressurection.

But actually, if you are a theist (As apposed to an atheist or a deist), there is no reason not to beleive in the possibility of ressurection. And so if you are inclined to follow the christian God, there is no reason to not think that the Ressurection happened. It requires no extra beleif.

The fact that you are finding it hard to beleive in shows that you have a hard time with theism.. not that there is something wrong with christianity.

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Sava


no...

by not letting kids have sex until 18 are parents biasing kids against sex?


but people still have sex right?

You are making my point for me Jon Miller.

You are saying your religion must be taught to children because intelligent people who are not brainwashed as children are less likely to choose it.

No, I am saying that if you bring kids up to be atheist, you are bringing them up biased. Just as if you bring them up to be theist.

There is no nothing in religion. You believe in something, or you beleive in nothing.

If you wanted to unbias your kids as much as possible, you would have to raise them so that they spent some time following all sorts of religions. Raising them as atheists does not make them unbiased, it makes them biased towards atheism.

Jon Miller

[Sava]

I am not saying to bring them up atheist...

I am saying no religion at all...

agnostic...

agnostic is not atheism

[Ben Kenobi]

well, you are just... well... something entirely different... a unique case... scary... yikes...

but I still love you

They are plenty of converts to religion, we don't all grow up in the faith. And a few of us are even Catholics.

I don't believe religion is an essential part of life at all... in fact I think I think it is a terrible burden upon society. Superstition and myth has no place in civilized society. Any possible good that comes from religion can happen without religion. Humanity is better off without it.

That's fair enough. However, you must agree that someone who does see religion as an essential part of life, will not want to wait until their children are 18 to teach them about religion.

We should embrace reason, critical thinking, tolerance, and science... not blind faith, ignorance, and superstition.

Ah, there are plenty of other folks who reject reason and question whether reason can be reliable. Why the bias against empirical knowledge?

nobody is saying not to live a moral life... you can still live by the teachings of Jesus... In fact, Jesus says a lot of very good things. But you can be a good person AND still be an intelligent person.

I'm not sure about the good part sava, is any one of us good? The intelligence I'm pretty certain is lacking though.

[Jon Miller]

Among those who reject religoin, somehting else pretty much always comes and takes its place. It just is generally not organized.

Many who are atheist beleive in mysticism.. (I know some)

Others beleive in science (As a religion, which is a perversion of science).

Still others beleive in an ideology.. (some marxists are this way)

In all cases, they are replacing religion. The human being is inherently seeks to beleive in something.

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

by not letting kids have sex until 18 are parents biasing kids against sex?

but people still have sex right?

Ah, so then you are in favour for the parents waiting until 18 to teach them about sex, eh?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Sava
I am not saying to bring them up atheist...

I am saying no religion at all...

agnostic...

agnostic is not atheism

If you bring them up with no religion at all you are bringing them up atheist. And even if the defacto of the two were different, you would still be raising them agnostic, which is still a bias (it is a bias towards, we don't know).

Jon Miller
(But honestly, you have not been saying we dont' know if there is a God, we don't know if Jesus was the Son of God, you have been saying that Jesus wasn't the Son of God)

(most who claim to be agnostic are really atheist, it is just that agnostic seems more logical on its surface)

[Kuciwalker]

If you bring them up with no religion at all you are bringing them up atheist.

QFT. Atheism is not a belief

/me saves this for future debates

[Pekka]

"They believed what? That Christ was a man, or that Christ was God? How could they possibly believe that Christ was God, after they had stolen his dead body from the tomb?"

Come on Ben I know what you're trying to do, but I see there are several different possibilities, scenarios, totally possible and even believable.

IF they stole the body, they'd be in great danger no matter what. Like I said, it would make sense to claim it ressurected. It's a good power play. It didn't work for them though.

And if they stole it, they'd be the main suspects anyway, so instead of crying that to the judge, they should get as much power behind as possible, to not face the consequences, to get the public behind. That's a power play right there.

But you have to understand I'm more liberal follower myself. And almost everyone is more strict follower than myself, and I sometimes don't understand why they are so wound up and many points they just run over what Jesus teaches and taunts other people and .. even kill and stuff. And if nothing else, then just thinks everyone is going to Hell if you don't say the alphabets backwards in red lights every wednesday. Forgetting the big picture. But who is to say who is right, I guess I just like to keep it simple and believe that it's more fair and peaceful thing than throwing rocks at people all the time. Or at least it SHOULD be.

"You don't know much theology, and should read more."

Thanks. I guess I should quote you where you say there are many different interpretations. Even today, many high ups in Christianity say taht for examples Jews will go to hell.

And I have already said I have chosen to believe in Jesus and God. And that I'm just looking for arguments here for things that doesn't make 100% sense. You are going nowhere with 'there is no reason to' and if that is true then 'there is no reason to' something else either. That is circular logic error, pointed earlier in this thread.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

That's fair enough. However, you must agree that someone who does see religion as an essential part of life, will not want to wait until their children are 18 to teach them about religion.

this is how religion survives... by brainwashing the young before they can think for themselves... I can think of no greater betrayal that a parent can commit upon a child. Parents have a responsibility to teach children about the world. But instead of teaching them about the world, they brainwash them about myths, superstition and fairy tales.

Growing up its like... oooh Santa, the Easter Bunny... that stuff is fine... you learn one day those are not real... but then its like... Jesus!!! oh wait... that's the fairy tale some of the adults BELIEVE IN!!!! WTF?

Ah, there are plenty of other folks who reject reason and question whether reason can be reliable. Why the bias against empirical knowledge?

funny how religionists fall back on "empirical knowledge" to justify their beliefs... the mind can play tricks on you... think about all the people who see UFO's... or go talk to a homicide detective, they will tell you eyewitness evidence is often the most unreliable evidence because everybody will see something different... empirical evidence is the worst kind of evidence because it is subject to interpretation... it is subjective... anyone can manipulate it to serve their agenda...

my devout christian grandmother told me, "God gave us a mind to use it, lose it, or abuse it"...

I'm not sure about the good part sava, is any one of us good? The intelligence I'm pretty certain is lacking though.

well, you can live in the Christian world of self-hate and tell yourself you are a sinner... but me? I am a good person. I don't steal from people. I don't kill. I don't hate people because of their skin color, their ethnicity, their SEXUAL ORIENTATION or anything else I can think of... I am courteous to people... I mind my own business, clean up after myself and don't bother people.

Do I have flaws? Sure. Am I perfect? No.

But am I going to beg for forgiveness for all I have done? No.

Why the hell should I do that?

I haven't hurt anyone here on Earth and I don't need God (if he exists) to forgive me for anything... and if he is going to send me to hell for not believing in him or for some procedural crap regarding forgiveness, then he is a dumbass and doesn't deserve to be worshipped...

It is obvious that Christianity (and every other religion) has been created by humans. They are horribly flawed. They contradict themselves. They have major logical fallacies.

Anyone who believes in them is a moron.

I'm not trolling, just expressing my honest opinion.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

If you bring them up with no religion at all you are bringing them up atheist.

QFT. Atheism is not a belief

* Kuciwalker saves this for future debates

you are wrong... and JM is wrong



atheism: 2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity