Call for ecumenical throwdown!

[Pekka]

hey no one is saying you're in the wrong or right. Good for you if you are sure about things.

But this thread was mostly about the problems around Jesus and the evidence about him being immortal or not. The 'I just believe that' argument is done with, and now is time for other arguments.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Pekka
The 'I just believe that' argument is done with, and now is time for other arguments.

That's the problem. There are no other arguments.

[Jon Miller]

But that has been known for ages, you can read speculation by theologians and others, but it is nothing factual, just speculation.

But there are none, not really firm ones. There is no scientific evidence for. There is none against (except that there is no scientific precident for anything being immortal).

If you beleive in God, then no additional beleif is needed to beleive that something/someone could be immortal. Then it is up to you whether you beleive in Jesus Christ or not.

Plenty of people (like the muslims) think that Jesus was a great prophet, or a great man. That does not make you christian.

It is known that relatively soon after His death, there were a group of people who believed that He had died and ressurrected. But there is some, even on this board, who maintain that Paul made it all up. It is definitely true that Paul is mostly responsible for the religion that is now known as christianity.

Whether you believe things to be true, is up to you. It is a choice that you have to make. If you beleive that God exists.. in more then the most deistic sense, then there is no evidence for or against except that which must be taken on faith.

Now if you don't beleive in God, or beleive only in a deist God (one who doesn't act, or cannot act), then the evidence is against (Son of God? immortal? those are all concepts that would require additional beleif for those people).

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Wycoff


That's the problem. There are no other arguments.

I believe, or I don't beleive, are the only two arguments. No others exist.

Jon Miller

[Sava]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


So children should also not be taught not to kill, or to be tolerant of others, or all the other moral things (most) parents teach their children? Religion is but an additional thing that many parents teach their children. Just liking playing with others.

Also, in those areas where religion was persecuted, once religion was free again, saw a huge increase in religiousness or spiritualness. I would imagine that your enforced ignorance would soon be replaced by myrad of religions and spiritualist ideas. Man's psych seems to be inherently religious or spiritual in nature. Now I would agree that a lot of these religons or spiritualist ideas would not be christianity.

Jon Miller

how is belief in superstition and myth... or belief in an imaginary god the same as the things you listed?

How terribly offensive that you would suggest that

teaching children not to kill other people, to be tolerant, and not to steal, etc, are GOOD morals that can be taught without all the GARBAGE that comes with religion...

it can be taught without all the myth and superstition... it can be taught without the ignorance, hatred, bigotry, and blind faith that is required for religion...

this is what you don't understand

this is why our society is so ****ed up

hopefully humanity will grow out of the dark ages...

according the way we teach history, the dark ages ended... not so... as long as religion is so dominant, we are still in it...

[Jon Miller]

teaching kids religion is a good moral...

it appears your parents might have not taught you to be tolerant?

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

note I don't beleive that parents can do whatever they want to their kids

one of the things they should do, is allow them freedom when they reach a proper age (18 sounds fine..)

and not sell their lives

this means that if there is something (like becoming a monk, or marrying someone, or do some other permanent like thing), that the parents should not be able to do it to their kids, that their kids should have the right to change their minds and not enter into binding contracts...

Jon Miller

[Odin]

Sava, The reason most people are religious (besides absorbing the culture of ones peers) is that I don't think most people have the guts to beleive there is no comforting God of Miracles and no afterlife, the prospect is too terrifying for the average person (indeed, the prospect of no afterlife terrifies me ).

[Sava]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
teaching kids religion is a good moral...

explain this further

it appears your parents might have not taught you to be tolerant?

in what way?

who am I intolerant of?

oh yeah...

I don't tolerate bigotry and ignorant morons... I am guilty of that! I admit it.

But I accept people regardless of race, ethnicity, RELIGION, sexual orientation, nationality, and lots of other stuff I can't think of...


you need to understand what I am saying... don't misinterpret my posts...

it is wrong to teach kids to believe in superstition and myth as truth...

this is basically what I am saying

[Sava]

Originally posted by Odin
Sava, The reason most people are religious (besides absorbing the culture of ones peers) is that I don't think most people have the guts to beleive there is no comforting God of Miracles and no afterlife, the prospect is too terrifying for the average person (indeed, the prospect of no afterlife terrifies me ).

thank you captain obvious

[Pekka]

Miller, OK so that means YOU don't have any more arguments. There are bound to be more arguments and just because you haven't heard of them doesn't make it so.

There are weird things around Jesus that should be otherwise if he was to be son of God, to make more sense. First of all, why don't we have any of his writings? I'm sure he must of written things. To say he wasn't much of a writing man, that's more weird than the opposite would be.

Also, I find it weird that Christians often times goes exactly the opposite way of teachings of the Christ, I find it weird that there is no mention of the dinosauruses in the bible even if some dufus claims there is. There is none. God created earth and all that in 7 days. So.. where are the dynosauruses mentioned and that life before humans? Nowhere. Then again, people back then didn't know about dynos. People who wrote the bible.

That's one weirdness more.

What I'm saying is. Not only does bible need modernisation in forms of adding more gospels to it, it also lacks as a religion when we talk about modern days. Not only that, one of the biggest points of the whole hippie cruice of Jesus has totally been left out of the action of Christians, those who usually are more loud than others, and that is to tolerate others, and to co-operate and stuff. We don't even co-operate in this religion with each other. We have separate churches, tons of them. Some believe you should wear jelly on your head on Tuesdays, some believe you should probably cut your willy off for you own good when you are 3, some teach all the other Christians have gotten it wrong, and in some you just make a considerable money contribution and hallelujah you are a good man.

What I'm sayign is, if Christians are literally the followers of the Christ, we have failed miserably. We aren't following the Christ at all here. I mean some are. And some who are loud, they are following too. But some fundamentals of the whole thing has been lost, and between all the arguing if we should walk backward every other Saturday, I mean who cares? Is that REALLY important? Christianity in different countries differ.

And why does the churches carry the ultimate power of saying how things oughta be done so you do it right? If I believe in Jesus, that should be enough, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops the church makes up. And why can't I criticize the churches and their actions, hypocricy of it, and be the real follower. We need to look around and clean our own base first before throwing any rocks. That should be the most Christian act a member can do. If someone has a problem with it, I think they have lost their ways already.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Pekka
Miller, OK so that means YOU don't have any more arguments. There are bound to be more arguments and just because you haven't heard of them doesn't make it so.

I would be interested in more agruments. As I said, I have read books on this subject, and engaged in many discussions. All arguments come down to one of the two I mentioned earlier.

JM

[Sava]

Jon Miller, do you believe in Adam and Eve as the literal truth of creation?

[Pekka]

right, right, but there are bound to be more so I'm interested hearing them out beacuse I think in Christianity, that's the one single most important question so it's worth pondering more.... Arguments can be of other nature too. They can be against Jesus being immortal. Prove the premise to be wrong. Or at least come close to proving.

I just have a problem with the whole argument and most of all that the ones who are tight about it, not meaning you or anyone else at this board, they usually also are the most forgetful of Jesus' teachings. They tend to pick their favourite part and go radical about it and forget the big picture in scheme of things.

Let's not forget Jesus was a modern man at his times. He was about change. That made the churces and everyone stand on their toes, and ultimately he was murdered. His ideas were more in the side of tolerance, let's all get along, hey look at that beach let's go there and spend weekend telling stories and stuff, hardly what the followers are after these days. Today it's about power plays, about religious domination, about .. lots of things. Mostly, hypocracy, led by churches. Not ALL churches, not ALL followers.. but some. Many. What would Christians really think Jesus would do if he was here today? He'd travel around and criticize these fast bastards running the world and organized religion. Not in bad way necessarily, but he'd be for change, modernisation, this is my opinion. And he'd get in trouble, AGAIN.

And if you want to do like Jesus, I think you should and remember that, and not throw rocks at people who criticize organized ways of sometimes even crime and corruption. Outright hypocricy that is.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Sava


thank you captain obvious

Go back to your post, Sargent. That's an order!