American Arrogance Rooted in Christian Beliefs

[Proteus_MST]

Re: Re: American Arrogance Rooted in Christian Beliefs

Originally posted by Ming


Hmmmm... guess what, we weren't the first to send missionaries into other countries... Western Europe was doing that long before we were... So maybe the thread title should be Western Europe Arrogance... since all we did was learn this crap from them

Of course,
but we in Europe have already evolved away from this stage
and are now far more secular than american christians
(and therefore also more open to see other religions as equal to christian beliefs )

[rah]

Yes, the muslims are feeling equal in England right about now.

[lord of the mark]

Rabbi Jerome M. Epstein
Executive Vice President
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism

An open letter to a Rabbi Ovadia Yosef

Dear Rabbi Yosef:

I was astounded to read excerpts from a sermon in which you concluded that Hurricane Katrina was a punishment from God in response to Israel’s recent withdrawal from the Gaza strip. I am outraged that a rabbi – in fact a former chief rabbi of Israel, and a much-admired Shas Party leader -- would have the audacity and the lack of sensitivity to suggest that the terrible devastation inflicted by Hurricane Katrina was God’s retribution for President Bush’s support of the withdrawal.

Although you may hold steadfast to this perverse belief, fortunately the vast majority of Jews do not. The hurricane destroyed the lives of thousands of innocent men, women, and children, and disrupted hundreds of thousands more. Those lives were tragically ended or upended by an accident of nature. Neither their religion nor their race – to which you alluded in your sermon -- was a factor. God’s loved ones are suffering.

You incorrectly, venomously, and shamefully described Hurricane Katrina as a punishment for steps that Israel has taken with the hope and dream of creating peace. Putting aside the politics of the withdrawal from Gaza, the Jewish God in whom I believe does not behave in this way. I respect your understanding of the Torah as prohibiting withdrawal from Gaza. I interpret the Torah differently. We share the heritage of the same Torah but we interpret God’s words differently --- and your interpretation is held only by an extreme minority.

God gave the Torah to humanity with the hope that we would live by it and interpret it intelligently. For you to speak with such certainty about what God wants is arrogance. To attempt to convince others of the truth of your interpretation is irresponsible.

God gave us values through His gift of Torah, and God holds humanity accountable to live according to those values. I accept the responsibility of living according to my understanding of those values. I accept God’s involvement and influence in my daily life. But my understanding of God does not permit me to accept that every bad or good thing that occurs is a reward or punishment. There are times when bad things happen to good people.

What humanity needs most at this time is help, not finger-pointing. We need consolation, not anger; love, not hate. The God I serve and pray to daily has charged me not to blame but to help.

I do not understand the purpose of your statement, except to argue and justify a political position that already has been rejected. Not only have you attempted to create guilt in those who do not deserve it, by your very words you have shirked your responsibility. You should inspire your followers to help those who so desperately need it.

Unlike you, I want each person whose path in life was tragically affected by Katrina to know that I empathize with their feelings of loss, and that I will do whatever I can to bring them resources to sustain their God-given lives.

Each weekday during the month of Elul you and I will have the opportunity to hear the sound of the shofar, which challenges us to look into our hearts, examine ourselves and draw closer to God. Although you have refused to recognize my standing as a rabbi, I turn to you as a rabbinic colleague and ask you to join the worldwide community of Jews in helping to be God’s emissaries in tikkun olam – rebuilding the world.


Sincerely,

Rabbi Jerome M. Epstein

[lord of the mark]

from mishnayomit

Shabbat, Chapter Eight, Mishnah Five - Reading for Tuesday, September 13,
2005

Introduction
And even more minimum measurements for which a person is liable for
carrying!
One interesting thing to note is that as we reach the end of the chapter,
there are more and more debates between the sages. According to Abraham
Goldberg, the editor of the Mishnah intentionally saves debates for latter
portions of the discussion in order not to confuse the reader at an earlier
point. In other words, the redaction of the mishnah serves the pedagogic
purpose of making the material clearer. This is probably one of the unique
attributes of the Mishnah that make it the best-edited work in the entire
corpus of rabbinic literature.

Mishnah Five
1) Red earth, as much as is required for a seal on merchandise bags, the
words of Rabbi Akiva.
a) But the sages say: as much as is required for the seal on letters.
2) Manure, or thin sand, as much as is required for fertilizing a cabbage
stalk, the words of Rabbi Akiva.
a) But the sages say: for fertilizing one leek plant.
3) Thick sand, as much as is required for putting on a full plaster trowel.
4) Reed, as much as is required for making a pen.
a) But if it is thick or crushed, as much as is required for boiling the
lightest of eggs beaten up and placed in a stew pot.

Explanation
Section one: Red earth was used for making seals. According to Rabbi
Akiva, the minimum amount of red earth which causes a person to be liable
for carrying is enough to make a seal on a merchandise bag. The sages
disagree and set an even smaller amount-the amount used to make a seal on a
letter.
Section two: Manure and thin sand were used to fertilize vegetables. Rabbi
Akiva sets the minimum amount at enough to fertilize a cabbage stalk,
whereas the sages set the minimum amount at enough to fertilize a leek
plant. In both this section and the above Rabbi Akiva is more lenient than
the sages.
Section three: Lime plasterers would mix thick sand with their lime. The
measure of thick sand for which one is obligated for carrying on Shabbat is
enough to fill one plasterer's trowel so that the sand can be mixed with
lime. This is the minimum amount of thick sand that has practical use.
Section four: Reeds were often used to make pens. If the reed was usable
for making pens, then the minimum amount is enough to make one pen. This
would be a very small amount.
If it was not possible to use the reed to make a pen, for instance the reed
was too thick or it was crushed, then they would burn it in the fire. With
regard to carrying such types of reed, the minimum amount is enough to make
a fire which would fry a small egg. This would obviously be a much larger
amount than above.

[Saras]

Jesus Saves

You go to the church, you kiss the cross
You will be saved at any cost
You have your own reality
Christianity
You spend your life just kissing ass
A trait that’s grown as time has passed
You think the world will end today
You praise the lord, it’s all you say

Jesus saves, listen to you pray
You think you’ll see the pearly gates
When death takes you away

For all respect you cannot lust
In an invisible man you place your trust
Indirect dependency
Eternal attempt at amnesty
He will decide who lives and dies
Depopulate satanas rise
You will be an accessory
Irreverence and blasphemy

(lead: king)

Jesus saves, no need to pray
The gates of pearl have turned to gold
It seems you’ve lost your way

(lead: hanneman)

Jesus saves, no words of praise
No promised land to take you to
There is no other way

(lead: king)

[Wernazuma III]

Ted, while some part of American arrogance is of course partially Christian in nature, but there's more to it ("we're better because we just kick ass" --> thanks Japher )
But neither is Christianity a prerequisite for Arrogance nor viceversa. National pride and arrogance simply use dominant cultural traits for display.
Some 200 years ago, the French were so arrogant thought it was necessary to burn down Europe in order to install laicité and "save" the other Europeans from Ancient Regime.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by aneeshm
My views on this : I consider Christianity a barbaric , imperialist ideology , which does not deserve to be called a religion , and consider the Christian view of God and faith uncivilised and , in general , very backwards .

Want examples ? I've got many . Just ask .

Random India hater:

"My views on this : I consider India a barbaric , imperialist country , which does not deserve to be called India (just because I don't like it) , and consider the Indian view of God and faith uncivilised and , in general , very backwards.

Want examples ? I've got many . Just ask ."

[OzzyKP]

Ted, I hate to do this, but I'm afraid I must produce the sternest rebuke ever visited upon the mighty Ted Striker:


Ted Striker

[Docfeelgood]

Ya mean ya can't get into heaven if ya don't kill a infidel?

[Sandman]

There are other Christian countries that aren't as arrogant. And it's not as if Christianity is an automatically arrogant religion.

I reckon it's more a case of Christianity being hooked onto arrogance spawned by other causes.

[our_man]

Re: American Arrogance Rooted in Christian Beliefs

Originally posted by Ted Striker
"Jesus Saves"


American churches often send missionaries into other countries to "save" their populations from eternal damnation. Non Christians, regardless of their beliefs, are considered to be going to hell. While missionaries are often some of the most kind and selfless people on this earth, they often hold the view that anyone who is non Christian is not going to get an afterlife.

This means that if you were a Buddhist, and spent your life picking up dying people off the streets, and never hurt anyone in your life, that doesn't matter, in the eyes of these churches, you're still going to burn in hell. On the other hand, if you raped and murdered a bunch of little boys, but then converted to Christianity at the last minute, that means you get a ticket to heaven. Sounds like a fair deal huh?

Because the heart of this country was founded on Christian values, and there has never been another major religion throughout our country, people have not been exposed to it, so they believe Christianity is the only way to go.

I often see reports of someone who dies in the heartland, and invevitably one of his friends will say, "he was a good Christian man." What, like that somehow makes him better than those evil heathens that aren't Christians. Geez.

Anyway, this one-sided view that non Christians somehow don't know what's best, spills over into all of our world views. It's arrogant, and I blame it all on this "Jesus saves," crap.

That's the way I see it.

You're very, very quick to generalize all of American Christianity, and while I can't say I've been that exposed to American churches, you're way off the mark from what I've seen. I've no doubt that there are evangelicals out there that conform to your views of intolerant Christianity, but the majority of American Christians (Catholics) I've met do not fall under your ideas.

Ted, go back to talking about something you know stuff about (like women ), because you're way off the mark here Playa'.

Look, from my own point of view, as a Catholic, I believe above all else in God's compassion and forgiveness. I believe in my heart that if you're a good person, regardless of your religion, God will be benevolent. After all, it's not always a persons fault that they're misguided in their choice of religion.

Anyway, you think Christianity is bad over this - do you know any Muslims Ted? There's a guy with me in university - pretty observant Muslim, good friends with me but believes I'm destined for hell as I'm a Christian (as well as his other non-Muslim friends). It makes him pretty depressed at times.

Originally posted by aneeshmMy views on this : I consider Christianity a barbaric , imperialist ideology , which does not deserve to be called a religion , and consider the Christian view of God and faith uncivilised and , in general , very backwards .

You're entitled to your views, although they're not very informed ones. I pity you, and I have to wonder made you hate Christianity so much.

Personally I find the cast system in India very backward, plus a whole host of other things, but that doesn't mean I think India is barbaric.

[Ben Kenobi]

American churches often send missionaries into other countries to "save" their populations from eternal damnation.

Not really. The most missionaries are being sent these days from the third world back to the West, in renewing their faith. A reversal of colonialism. South Korea sends way more missionaries per capita then the US, which is pretty good for a heathen nation, eh?

Non Christians, regardless of their beliefs, are considered to be going to hell. While missionaries are often some of the most kind and selfless people on this earth, they often hold the view that anyone who is non Christian is not going to get an afterlife.

I don't see what the problem is with this belief. The concept of religion is that the believers will receive benefits not accorded to unbelievers. In Christianity, this means that those who reject Christ will not go to heaven, just like someone who rejects God, rejects the benefits given by God.

Now, as for those who have not known God, you bring up a very old question. It may surprise you, but the orthodox interpretation in Catholicism is that God is the one who will judge and who will save, and not the church. Those who are outside the Catholic church can be saved by the same faith as Abraham.

Paul gets into this concept in Romans, that everyone has knowledge of God in their conscience, and that they can choose whether to abide by their conscience, in living according to the law written on their heart. 'For those who are without the law, who live by the law, are a law unto themselves.'

I often see reports of someone who dies in the heartland, and invevitably one of his friends will say, "he was a good Christian man." What, like that somehow makes him better than those evil heathens that aren't Christians. Geez.

As opposed to the shores, where being a Christian is seen as being backwards and ignorant, as something to be ashamed? I find that very telling your reference to the 'heartland'.

Anyway, this one-sided view that non Christians somehow don't know what's best, spills over into all of our world views. It's arrogant, and I blame it all on this "Jesus saves," crap.

As opposed to the non-Christian muslims who believe they know what the West is doing wrong? It is a dual edged sword, Ted. I see nothing wrong in the concept that there exist moral absolutes for everyone, and that men can come to know them.

That's the way I see it.

[lord of the mark]

My dream is of a place and a time where America will once again be seen as the last best hope of earth abe lincoln




"America is much more than a geographical fact. It is a political and moral fact - the first community in which men set out in principle to institutionalize freedom, responsible government, and human equality

Adlai Stevenson

"I am well aware of the toil and blood and treasure that it will cost to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the gloom I can see the rays of ravishing light and glory. I can see that the end is worth more than the means." - -- John Adams

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Non Christians, regardless of their beliefs, are considered to be going to hell.

I don't see what the problem is with this belief.

Carrot-and-stick "moral" codes are at best worthless, and are at worst completely amoral.

[Footie Mad]

Christianity has always been a tool of power and still is, just like other major religions. The problem is the people practicing the religion of "the one truth" wherever in the world they are.

It's easy to forgot the religious and cultural genocide of the entire American continent by Europeans.

Not that there is much point in "regretting" that now since the guilty are all dead.