Secession Thread II - Canadian version: Canada, "the Argentina of the 21st century"

[Max Webster]

Hey this thread is starting to get too mushy. Back to the Alberta bashing.

I will start. Does anyone think the Beverly Hillbillies DVD sells well in Alberta?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Wezil

I suspected you were from the east coast. I was thinking Nova Scotia for some reason (school?).

Don't know that I ever mentioned it on here before, but yes I did go to school in Halifax for my second degree.

So a good assumption/guess on your part.


Its four years in Alberta for me now and I do see changes in my attitudes. I see people here working hard and doing it in hard places (like roughnecks in the patch or a housebuilder working in minus 30, or people that go to Inuvik or yellowknife). I see people losing a job and accepting that, dusting themself off and immediately looking for a new one. I see people being self reliant!!

Seeing all this it is tougher and tougher to maintain my sympathy for a 28 or 35 year old able-bodied person who complains that there are "no jobs" in their particular community of 2000 people. Move! heck they are looking for people to work in the oilsands so much now that the employer will pay your move.

[Max Webster]

Originally posted by Flubber
Seeing all this it is tougher and tougher to maintain my sympathy for a 28 or 35 year old able-bodied person who complains that there are "no jobs" in their particular community of 2000 people. Move! heck they are looking for people to work in the oilsands so much now that the employer will pay your move.

I hear that you can make big money up there but the conditions must tough. People probably work up there, save as much dough as possible then move back.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Max Webster


I hear that you can make big money up there but the conditions must tough. People probably work up there, save as much dough as possible then move back.

Well my wife's brother works there and its not too bad. Its a decent sized town and the pay is very good. His complaints are generally

- lack of available women since the male-female ratio is outlandish
-- far too many young men with lots of money mean a lot of drugs etc and a "camp" mentality

Lots of people actually commute to McMurray from Edmonton ( the employers provide buses) since it is so pricey to get housing there. You can go in for a 4-5 day stint or a 2 week stint, staying in the employer accomodations and then get shipped home for your time off

[Ben Kenobi]

Seeing all this it is tougher and tougher to maintain my sympathy for a 28 or 35 year old able-bodied person who complains that there are "no jobs" in their particular community of 2000 people. Move!

Many have moved from my community of 75K people, and Calgary has drawn most of them. I was one of the few who continued on with school, and I'll be going back to finish up.

[Wezil]

My hometown was the same. Roughly 70K population but the biggest employer was an hours drive away (GM in Oshawa). I rarely return there now as almost all my friends left as well after highschool.

[Ben Kenobi]

The biggest employer in my town are the pulp mills. You'd be hardpressed to find more lumber production anywhere else in Canada. It'll be weird for me to go back again after being away for so long.

[Tingkai]

Hey Flubber: On Canada Day I forgot to post this for you, Stan's song for me sons in Alberta:

Well it's blackfish at play in Hermitage Bay
From Pushthrough across to Bois Island.
They broach and they sprout and they lift their flukes out
And they wave to a town that is dying.

Now it's many's the boats that have plied on the foam,
Hauling away! Hauling away!
But there's many more fellows been leaving their homes,
Where whales make free in the harbour.

It's at Portage and Main you'll see them again
On their way to the hills of Alberta.
With lop-sided grins, they waggle their chins
And they brag of the wage they'll be earning.
Then it's quick, pull the string boys, and get the loot out,
Haul it away! Haul it away!
But just two years ago you could hear the same shout
Where the whales make free in the harbour.

Free in the harbour; the blackfish are sporting again
Free in the harbour; untroubled by comings and goings of men
Who once did persue them as oil from the sea,
Hauling away! Hauling away!
Now they're Calgary roughnecks from Hermitage Bay,
Where the whales make free in the harbour.

Well, it's living they've found, deep in the ground,
And if there's doubts, it's best they ignore them.
Nor think on the bones, the crosses and stones
Of their fathers that came there before them.
In the taverns of Edmonton, fishermen shout
Haul it away! Haul it away!
They left three hundred years buried up by the Bay
Where the whales make free in the harbour.

Free in the harbour; the blackfish are sporting again
Free in the harbour; untroubled by comings and goings of men
Who once did persue them as oil from the sea,
Hauling away! Hauling away!
Now they're Calgary roughnecks from Hermitage Bay,
Where the whales make free in the harbour.

[Pyrodrew]

Canadian Beef

Originally posted by Max Webster
NYE... Whats the state of the cattle industry in Alberta? Do you see first hand the effects of the US embargo? How are the farmers getting by without any income from their cattle sales?

I heard the Bush adminstration is pushing to have the US markets opened up to Canadian Cattle.

http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050714/APA/507141204

Appeals Court Overturns Canada Beef Ban
By DAVID KRAVETS
Associated Press Writer

A federal appeals court ruled Thursday that Canadian cattle can again be imported to the United States, dismissing a lower court decision that resuming the imports could spread mad cow disease.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture said it will reopen the border within days to Canadian cattle, which were banned in May 2003 after a cow in Alberta was found to have mad cow disease. Agriculture Secretary Mike Johanns said the government was already working with Canadian food inspectors to certify cattle for shipment.

The unanimous decision by a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturns a Montana judge who blocked the USDA from reopening the border in March, saying it "subjects the entire U.S. beef industry to potentially catastrophic damages" and "presents a genuine risk of death for U.S. consumers."

The justices said they would issue another ruling soon explaining their rationale.

The decision came a day after the Justice Department urged the appeals court in Seattle to reopen the border to imports. Justice Department attorney Mark Stern said lifting the ban is based on "good science" and would not result in the "infestation in American livestock."

During the hearing, the three judges suggested that U.S. District Judge Richard F. Cebull perhaps should have given deference to the USDA's decision.

Judge A. Wallace Tashima said the law "does invest the secretary of agriculture with a certain amount of discretion."

Judge Connie Callahan agreed, saying the USDA is "entitled to some deference. It's their whole job to keep up with the science to make those decisions."

Cebull issued the order months before a scheduled trial that will weigh the cattlemen's science against that of the USDA. A trial on those competing views is scheduled to begin July 27.

The dispute pits ranchers - whose profits have improved slightly without Canadian competition - against feedlots and packers that have fewer cows to feed and slaughter without Canadian supplies.

Bill Bullard, executive director of the Ranchers Cattlemen Action legal Fund, which brought the suit on behalf of U.S. ranchers, said the decision imperils U.S. beef.

The USDA "did not provide significant justification for overturning a long-standing policy that protected both the U.S. cattle herd and U.S. consumers from the introduction of BSE," Bullard said.

American Meat Institute President J. Patrick Boyle said the industry will be able to resume cattle shipments quickly. "A lot of the preliminary work is already done. I think you'll see the industry move quickly," he said.

Boyle said the ruling is also "a win for American consumers who were paying $1.85 a pound for ground beef before the border closed and are paying about $2.55 today."

Speaking in Ottawa before the appellate court was released, Boyle blamed the ban for the loss of more than 8,000 jobs in the U.S. meat packing industry.

The Canadian Cattlemen's Association, which represents some 90,000 beef producers, estimates they have lost more than $5.6 billion since the ban was established.

"This is a tremendous victory for the northwest beef industry," said Cody Easterday, who runs an 18,000-head feedlot in Pasco, Wash. "It's basically going to protect our future for many families that depend on the beef industry for their livelihood."

Mad cow disease is the common name for bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or BSE. People who eat meat tainted with BSE can contract a degenerative, fatal brain disorder called variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. More than 150 people died from it following a 1986 outbreak in the United Kingdom.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
As for union with the United States, why not?

The US government is corrupt as hell. US economy is slowly collapsing and US capitalism is dying. Vast swathes of the country are asshatted. Minority rural interests run roughshod over majority urban interests. There's little chance of US abandoning first-past-the-post in the next twenty years.

Tying yourself to the States is like tying yourself to the Hindenburg.

[Ben Kenobi]

I would argue just the opposite. Canada is far more corrupt than the US, as evidenced by the Liberal party, and their most recent scandals. The Canadian economy is slowly collapsing as our population starts to decrease. Vast swathes, including my hometown are still trying to recover, while the young people leave in droves.

The fact that Canada might change from first past the post is nothing to cheer about.

The United States is going to be far better off than Canada, and if the US goes down, then so will Canada. The reverse is not true, as the US can make do without Canada.

[Asher]

The Canadian economy is slowly collapsing as our population starts to decrease.

...

what?

Canada's population and economy are both increasing.

[Ben Kenobi]

Not if the trends continue.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/040419/d040419b.htm

The crude birth rate dropped to 10.5 live births for every 1,000 population, the lowest since vital statistics began to be produced nationally in 1921. The rate has dropped 25.4% in the last 10 years alone.

In total, 328,802 babies were born in 2002, down 1.5% from the previous year. It was the 11th decline in the past 12 years.

[Spiffor]

Welcome to western standards

[Ben Kenobi]

http://www40.statcan.ca/cgi-bin/getcans/sorth.cgi?lan=eng&dtype=fina&filename=demo33a.htm&sortact=2&sortf=2

Here are the birth and death rates. When the death rates increase past the birth rates, then our population would be in absolute decline. Right now, we have about 330k born each year, and 220k dying.