Tiannanmen Massacre Anniversary

[MrFun]

That does it -- turn in your light saber. You are a disgrace.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
To a much, much, lesser extent, but still disgusting are the certain trolls here who use the tragedy as a cover for their ongoing anti-Chinese racist tirades which can be summed up as: China is evil and Chinese people are scum who are "all absorbed into a consumer/nationalistic frenzy."

Why is it that I always see you painting Americans with the same brush, then go on a rant like this?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Ya know, China doesn't seem to have nearly as much trouble enforcing laws against dissidents... maybe they don't want to enforce the child-labor laws?

And maybe China want to enforce the laws, as can be seen in the pilot project on child trafficking mentioned in the article.

The problem is money. The factory owners can bribe local officials. It happens all the time. Dissidents usually don't have the money for bribes.

The corruption is part of the transition into a market society. If the change is done quickly, which many people here advocate, then there is a risk of ending up like Russia. If it is done methodically, as advocated by people like Joseph Stiglitz, a nobel-winner in economics, then fewer problems are created.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Yes, there is a problem with child labor in China, but simply blaming the government is simplistic.

The problem is caused:
- lack of government resources available to enforce child labor laws;
- poor families deciding to send their children to work instead of school;
- unscrupulous business people.

Child labor is common in all economically under-developed countries. It is not a China problem. It is a poverty problem.

I'll agree with you if you change the penultimate sentence to: "It is not strictly a China problem."

[Kuciwalker]

We're not talking about the transition to a market society. We're talking about the transition to a government that doesn't run over protesters with tanks.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher


Why is it that I always see you painting Americans with the same brush, then go on a rant like this?

Your statement is completely wrong.

I have never used an American tragedy to take pot shots at Americans.

I treat the American posters here as individuals. Some I find intelligent, some I don't.

There are aspects of American society that I praise, and some aspects that I condemn.

And that's a big difference between myself and the anti-China crowd here. I'll talk about the pros and cons of the US, and China, while the anti-China crowd takes a black and white view - US good, China bad.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


I'll agree with you if you change the penultimate sentence to: "It is not strictly a China problem."

So you believe that it only happens in China?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Your statement is completely wrong.

I have never used an American tragedy to take pot shots at Americans.

You used the American-bombing-Canadians story to take many potshots at "Americans".

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
We're not talking about the transition to a market society. We're talking about the transition to a government that doesn't run over protesters with tanks.

It's the same thing.

I wish that China could transform itself overnight so that people here had the same democratic rights and protections as in the United States. But it's not going to happen overnight because it is impossible to make that quick of a change.

What's important is whether there is fundamental, true change.

We know there is change, but is it happening fast enough? This is where Tiananmen Square comes into play. If the Chinese government acknowledged its mistakes then that would send a clear signal that it is committed to making government reforms.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Tingkai
It's the same thing.

You're saying that capitalism is necessary for liberty?

Hell, even I admit it's possible to have a semi-communist state that doesn't run protesters over with tanks...

And they aren't the same thing, since China has seen economic growth by leaps and bounds since 1989, but very little progress in the human and political rights arena...

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Tingkai
So you believe that it only happens in China?

No, as you assert, it probably happens in most if not all impoverished countries.

However, this does not absolve the Chinese government from culpability. They need to direct more resources to the problem, and they need to root out any corruption which contributes to the problem.

But there's plenty of blame to go around:
For the parents who send their children into this situtation.
For the businessmen who exploit the children.
For the customers (including those in the U.S.) who buy the goods made by children.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Your statement is completely wrong.

I have never used an American tragedy to take pot shots at Americans.

What happened to you America? You should be, and could be a shining example of democracy, but instead you lower yourself to the likes of Saddam, Myanmar and China.

Bringing freedom to the world, Bull ****

Shame on you America, shame on you.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

You used the American-bombing-Canadians story to take many potshots at "Americans".

No, I took potshots at the American pilots, and the American government for failing to prosecute them. I never said anything like all Americans are Canadian killers.

I also wrote several posting saying that the pilots deserved a trial so that they could put forth their defence that being forced to take drugs influenced their decision.

More than that, I said the primary goal was to find ways to reduce the chances of it happening again.

The anti-China crowd would simply say "It's their fault."

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

What happened to you America? You should be, and could be a shining example of democracy, but instead you lower yourself to the likes of Saddam, Myanmar and China.

Yes, and I was talking about the country and in the same thread I wrote:

"This is what pisses me off so much. Most Americans I know are decent people. They believe and have what most people in the world would cherish as true and valuable. And then the US government squanders and abuses this greatness."

Again, far different from the anti-China crowd.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
However, this does not absolve the Chinese government from culpability. They need to direct more resources to the problem, and they need to root out any corruption which contributes to the problem.

I agree completely.

The problem is how much resources does a government of a developing country have to spend on tackling this problem?

I think China probably could, and should spend more, but we're getting into a grey area. Would $1 million more be enough, or $2 million? How many extra policemen are needed to investigate the crimes? How many more lawyers and judges are needed?

I don't know.