Tiannanmen Massacre Anniversary

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


You're saying that capitalism is necessary for liberty?

No.

In Asia, capitalism does not lead to full democratic rights. Just look at Singapore, and to a lesser extent Hong Kong.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Tingkai
No.

In Asia, capitalism does not lead to full democratic rights. Just look at Singapore, and to a lesser extent Hong Kong.

Or China...

Thank you for just refuting your statement that "It's the same thing".

[Tingkai]

When I said it was the same thing I was referring to the process of making reforms of any type.

Again, it is impossible to reform a system overnight.

[pchang]

China is building a submarine fleet. It would appear that one less submarine a year could easily fund a large number of anti-child labor police.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Tingkai
When I said it was the same thing I was referring to the process of making reforms of any type.

Again, it is impossible to reform a system overnight.

Yes, well, it's been 5,844 nights.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The massacre in Tienanmen Square was a tragedy and a crime. Until the Chinese government acknowledges its disgusting actions, its attempts to reform itself and established a rule of law, of which there has been some efforts, will be meaningless. The government must admit that what it did was wrong, excessive and brutal.

Strange, a year ago, you wholly supported the massacre. What changed your opinion?

To a much, much, lesser extent, but still disgusting are the certain trolls here who use the tragedy as a cover for their ongoing anti-Chinese racist tirades which can be summed up as: China is evil and Chinese people are scum who are "all absorbed into a consumer/nationalistic frenzy."

What's shameful are people who use the tragedy, and trample the memory of what the students tried to do, in order to launch personal attacks.

If you don't like someone, the entire Chinese race or China, well then that's your choice, but don't use Tiananmen as a cover for your hatred.

That's terrible, but I don't see anyone doing that here. Who are you accusing? And based on what? That's pretty wild. You really need to back it up.

The students were trying to do something important in their call for a reduction of corruption and more democracy. They ended up paying with their lives. Their deaths should not be minimalized.

Last year, you called them an enemy of the people whose rash actions were going to bring down the government.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai


And maybe China want to enforce the laws, as can be seen in the pilot project on child trafficking mentioned in the article.

The problem is money. The factory owners can bribe local officials. It happens all the time. Dissidents usually don't have the money for bribes.

The corruption is part of the transition into a market society. If the change is done quickly, which many people here advocate, then there is a risk of ending up like Russia. If it is done methodically, as advocated by people like Joseph Stiglitz, a nobel-winner in economics, then fewer problems are created.

Good point. I now support the corruption and arrest of dissidents in China.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Your statement is completely wrong.

I have never used an American tragedy to take pot shots at Americans.

I treat the American posters here as individuals. Some I find intelligent, some I don't.

There are aspects of American society that I praise, and some aspects that I condemn.

And that's a big difference between myself and the anti-China crowd here. I'll talk about the pros and cons of the US, and China, while the anti-China crowd takes a black and white view - US good, China bad.

I seem to remember arguing with you over America's weight problem. You called all Americans overweight and disgusting. You then tried to cover up accusations of being a racist by claiming that Americans were not a race, but by still adhereing to your extremely offensive remarks.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai


It's the same thing.

I wish that China could transform itself overnight so that people here had the same democratic rights and protections as in the United States. But it's not going to happen overnight because it is impossible to make that quick of a change.

What's important is whether there is fundamental, true change.

We know there is change, but is it happening fast enough? This is where Tiananmen Square comes into play. If the Chinese government acknowledged its mistakes then that would send a clear signal that it is committed to making government reforms.

What fundamental changes have occurred since Tiannanmen? This is what this thread is about. Not an attempt to insult other posters, who you disagree with. Why you are not at least warned by a mod, baffles me.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Again, it is impossible to reform a system overnight.

Former Soviet republics of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia seem to be doing pretty fine, thank you.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
UR lives in HK.

Well, that counts as part of China. An autonomous sort of part, but a part nonetheless.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by mrmitchell

AFAIK

I've read, I think

UR is a manager or some kind of administrator at some computer or IT-related company/business/department/whatever
UR is in Hong Kong
UR was born and all his family is in Northern China
UR alone moved from that family to Hong Kong
UR has been in China all his life
UR has friends that work in the factories a bit further inland. Dunno if they are the sweatshop laborers, professionals, or bosses.

But that's all I think he has ever posted about himself.

*It might be Shanghai instead of Hong Kong.

UR, International Man of Mystery!

[DaShi]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/international/asia/05hong.html?oref=login

Thousands at Hong Kong Vigil for Tiananmen Anniversary

By KEITH BRADSHER
Published: June 5, 2005
HONG KONG, June 4 - Tens of thousands of residents lighted white candles at a vigil in one of Hong Kong's largest urban parks on Saturday night to commemorate the 16th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square killings, the latest sign of the emotional hold the event still has here and in mainland China.

This year's anniversary follows the death on Jan. 17 of Zhao Ziyang, who was purged as general secretary of the Communist Party after the 1989 crackdown for his reluctance to use force against students and other protesters in and around the square.

Organizers put the crowd here at 45,000, while the police estimated it at about half that size. The crowd was visibly smaller than in the last two years, when many in Hong Kong were deeply unhappy with economic stagnation here and the local political leadership.

But the turnout was similar to crowds that showed up in the years immediately preceding the Hong Kong government's unsuccessful attempt in 2003 to push through stringent internal security laws sought by Beijing. Britain returned Hong Kong to China in 1997.

Commemorating the killings has become a part of many family traditions here. Samy Fung, a 42-year-old elementary school teacher who has attended every vigil since 1989, brought her 8-year-old son, Ho-cheong, to the demonstration and said he had come every year since he was a baby.

"I remember a picture of a man standing in front of a tank and blocking it," Ho-cheong said, describing the famous photograph taken long before he was born.

Patrick Leung, 55, an interior designer, said he had also attended every year. "Hong Kong people are bound by this emotional event," he said.

This year's vigil coincides with a furor over a secret book reportedly written by a retired Communist Party official, Zong Fengmin, based on conversations he had with Mr. Zhao. Mr. Zhao, now regarded sympathetically by many advocates of greater democracy in China, reportedly criticizes the crackdown in the book; he had already been known to be critical of other Chinese leaders' handling of events in 1989, however.

A foreign correspondent for Singapore's leading newspaper, The Straits Times, was detained in southern China on April 22 and has been held incommunicado since then, after what his wife has described as an effort to obtain a copy of the book.

China's Foreign Ministry said Tuesday that the journalist, Ching Cheong, had confessed to accepting large sums of money to spy for an overseas intelligence agency. His wife, Mary Lau, dismissed the allegation on Friday.

Tingkai, what was the vigil like?

[Kuciwalker]

A foreign correspondent for Singapore's leading newspaper, The Straits Times, was detained in southern China on April 22 and has been held incommunicado since then, after what his wife has described as an effort to obtain a copy of the book.

China's Foreign Ministry said Tuesday that the journalist, Ching Cheong, had confessed to accepting large sums of money to spy for an overseas intelligence agency. His wife, Mary Lau, dismissed the allegation on Friday.

An example of China's great progress in the human right arena

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Saras
Former Soviet republics of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia seem to be doing pretty fine, thank you.

No you don't.