Tiannanmen Massacre Anniversary

[DaShi]

And I asked this in my response to Tingkai, but I want to open it up to everyone:

What kind of government would go to these lengths to block the internet sites that it doesn't want people to see?

I can understand overtly pornographic or violent sites to an extent, but even freedom of speech and choice should make them permitted.

[Kuciwalker]

The same sort of government that runs over people with tanks.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Bull****! In the words of the MII, "the internet has profited many people but it also has brought many problems, such as sex, violence and feudal superstitions and other harmful information that has seriously poisoned people's spirits." Does that sound like they'll just ignore the websites once they're registered? Moreover, according to the BBC, "it has developed a system which will monitor sites in real time and search each web address for its registration number. Any that are not registered will be reported back to the Ministry [of Information Industry], the statement said." Exactly what I said - active monitoring of websites.

I'm only going to explain this to you one last time. Corporate firewalls filter out websites in real-time by looking for keywords. This is done with a computer program, not people checking every website that is visited.

China's firewall will block websites, except for those that have a registration number. The ones with the registration numbers are allowed through the filter. It's a simple system.

This is just the same as corporate firewalls that use keyword seach programs to filter out websites. For example, I worked for a corporation where I needed access to the Hong Kong Jockey Club website. Initially, the firewall blocked the site because it is related to gambling. So I called up the tech support people and asked them to unblock the site, which they did. China's registration system will follow the same system.

Now if you can't understand this simple concept then I'm not going to waste any more time trying to explain it to you.

[DaShi]

Is China using the corporate system you describe?

If so, then people will just avoid using those words that are "banned" and create suitable substitutes for them. Then China will have to hire people to read through every website and identify the neologisms. Of course, if these new words are just redefined common or benign words, then there's the problem of blocking sites that don't violate China's oppressive subversion laws. Of course, this systems begs to ask, why have them register in the first place?

If not, and they just block websites that are unregistered, then people could just alter the content on their site after registration. China will then have to hire people to make sure that registered sites comply with their stringent guidelines.

In addition, both formats have to be concerned with hackers and corruption. Hackers could find there way through the firewall and it's a tempting target to try to take out. Businesses may bribe officials working in this department to block competitors websites, regardless of violations. According to your prior statements about the police system in China, it seems that China is ill-equipped to pull this off properly at this time. Seems like a waste of money to me.

Oh, and seek anger management. You've got issues, dude.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Tingkai
I'm only going to explain this to you one last time.

So that means you're going to self-pwn only one more time? Good, you're a little better than Kid.

Corporate firewalls filter out websites in real-time by looking for keywords. This is done with a computer program, not people checking every website that is visited.

Actually companies such as Websense DO scan their lists for changed content in addition to simple word searches.

China's firewall will block websites, except for those that have a registration number. The ones with the registration numbers are allowed through the filter. It's a simple system.

The Chinese government will also REGULARLY CHECK ALL THE WEBSITES ON THE REGISTERED LIST TO DETERMINE WHETHER THEY SHOULD STAY ON THE REGISTERED LIST. Why can't you understand this simple concept?

Now if you can't understand this simple concept then I'm not going to waste any more time trying to explain it to you.

This is priceless

[DaShi]

That last bit means he's spent. He'll have to put you on his ignore list now with all the others who have systematically reamed him.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

The Chinese government will also REGULARLY CHECK ALL THE WEBSITES ON THE REGISTERED LIST TO DETERMINE WHETHER THEY SHOULD STAY ON THE REGISTERED LIST.

Nice story, you've got a future as a fiction writer.

There's nothing in the BBC story that says the Chinese government will be regularly checking websites to decide whether the websites can remain registered.

Making stuff up to suit your discredited argument merely discredits you.

[pchang]

Tingkai has not had to deal with the MSS. I have. They are quite an "active" group. Here's hoping Tingkai never has a run in with them.

[Tingkai]

You're right. What happened?

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Nice story, you've got a future as a fiction writer.

There's nothing in the BBC story that says the Chinese government will be regularly checking websites to decide whether the websites can remain registered.

Making stuff up to suit your discredited argument merely discredits you.

But you haven't backed up a single claim you've posted. Kuci and I have both proven the necessity of active monitoring of websites. Your claims that a firewall is all that is needed is naive and simply wrong. Now your arguments are descending into insults, which they always do when you lose. And restating the same thing also won't help as it's already been proven wrong. Frankly, I'm curious to see what you will do, because you seem to have run out of tricks and inventiveness doesn't seem to be your strong suit.

However, you do always end agreeing with us in the end. As I said before, last year you supported the massacre wholeheartedly. Now you don't. Remember the thread about the hydroelectric dams in China. You eventually had to demonstrate that my posts (about the ineffectualness of simply throwing money at a problem without a concrete and enforced plan), which you claimed were 'idiotic' (ah, for a fair mod), were in fact correct. Next I predict that you will agree that Mao is not the great hero that many CCP members claim he his.

[DaShi]

China’s Internet filtering regime is the most sophisticated effort of its kind in the world. Compared to similar efforts in other states, China’s filtering regime is pervasive, sophisticated, and effective. It comprises multiple levels of legal regulation and technical control. It involves numerous state agencies and thousands of public and private personnel. It censors content transmitted through multiple methods, including Web pages, Web logs, on-line discussion forums, university bulletin board systems, and e-mail messages. Our testing found efforts to prevent access to a wide range of sensitive materials, from pornography to religious material to political dissent. Chinese citizens seeking access to Web sites containing content related to Taiwanese and Tibetan independence, Falun Gong, the Dalai Lama, the Tiananmen Square incident, opposition political parties, or a variety of anti-Communist movements will frequently find themselves blocked. While it is difficult to describe this widespread filtering with precision, our research documents a system that imposes strong controls on its citizens’ ability to view Internet content.

Unlike the filtering systems in many other countries, China’s filtering regime appears to be carried out at various control points and also to be dynamic, changing along a variety of axes over time. This combination of factors leads to a great deal of supposition as to how and why China filters the Internet. These complexities also make it very difficult to render a clear and accurate picture of Internet filtering in China at any given moment. Filtering takes place primarily at the backbone level of China’s network, though individual Internet service providers also implement their own blocking. Our research confirmed claims that major Chinese search engines filter content by keyword and remove certain search results from their lists. Similarly, major Chinese Web log (“blog”) service providers either prevent posts with certain keywords or edit the posts to remove them. We found also that some keyword searches were blocked by China’s gateway filtering and not the search engines themselves. Cybercafés, which provide an important source of access to the Internet for many Chinese, are required by law to track Internet usage by customers and to keep correlated information on file for 60 days. As a further indication of the complexity of China’s filtering regime, we found several instances where particular URLs were blocked but the domain was accessible, despite the fact that the source of content appeared consistent across the domain – suggesting that filtering may be conducted at a finer level in China than in the other countries that we have studied closely. Moreover, China’s Internet filtering appears to have grown more refined, sophisticated, and targeted during the years of ONI’s testing.

China’s intricate technical filtering regime is buttressed by an equally complex series of laws and regulations that control the access to and publication of material online. While no single statute specifically describes the manner in which the state will carry out its filtering regime, a broad range of laws – including media regulation, protections of “state secrets,” controls on Internet service providers and Internet content providers, laws specific to cybercafés, and so forth – provide a patchwork series of rationales and, in sum, massive legal support for filtering by the state. The rights afforded to citizens as protection against filtering and surveillance, such as a limited privacy right in the Chinese Constitution, which otherwise might provide a counter-balance against state action on filtering and surveillance, are not clearly stated and are likely considered by the state to be inapplicable in this context.

China operates the most extensive, technologically sophisticated, and broad-reaching system of Internet filtering in the world. The implications of this distorted on-line information environment for China’s users are profound, and disturbing.

I don't know about the rest of you, but only the word "cheap" comes to mind.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Tingkai

A reflection of an agarian society that struggles to feed itself. We similar situation happening in India, for example, and many other under developed economies.

That's true, but I was responding to your comment that "Families value their children". I'm afraid your further examples don't much help your original statement.

You do realize these people are dirt poor. As China moves to more a market economy, the poor must find anyway they can to survive.

Of course that's true, but I think there are few other countries where a mother would wink at her daughter's prostitution as long as it meant money sent home. Don't get me wrong, I personally think there are some major benefits to Chinese culture's frankness towards sexual matters, however I'm not convinced this is a good way to "value" your daughter.

Again, you see this in many societies. The manager who fires people because they are no longer useful, homeless people who are ignored, family members cut off and isolated, people being rude and obnoxious to each other, and so on.

It happens everywhere.

Sure, but as far as I personally know, it doesn't happen anywhere else like it does in China. In which other countries would a crowd of 200 come running from blocks away to gape at an accident victim, not one of them willing to lift a finger to help? Really, I could write a long book of examples on this topic, as could anyone who has spent appreciable time in China. Chinese people treat the people they know very well, but strangers are treated as dirt. You might look up Lu Xun's writing on what he called a Chinese "cultural defect".

Squandered?

China has achieved amazing results that have benefitted millions of people.

In the last 20 years, 250 million people have risen from poverty into the middle class, according to the Chinese government. A French bank puts the middle class at 50 million. Even with the lower number this is a phenomenal accomplishment. These people's quality of lives have significantly improved.(...)

I absolutely agree, but the benefits you describe are largely the result of the Party losening control a little. The burst of bottled-up energy shows what Chinese could be capable of in a freer society.

However, by waste I was thinking more of all the people in China today who are held back by the political system. For instance, there really are journalists who want to do serious investigative reporting to improve governance, but they are stymied by censors and Party hacks. So instead they end up wasting their talent writing stories about the romantic lives of celebrities. Really, the waste here is widespread and so dismaying.

You remind me of a tourist I once met who complained that the Indians were not spiritual, that all they cared about was making money. I thought, what did she expect? When you're poor in a capitalist society, the most important thing is to make money to put food on the table and a roof over your head.

I seriously doubt you have ever in your life been as poor as I have been. There was a time in my life when sometimes I could not afford a 25-cent newspaper. I shared an unheated flat. I remember for a while my lunch budget was sixty cents (in 1980s San Francisco). So please, no lectures on my lack of understanding of poverty.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Tingkai


I'm only going to explain this to you one last time. Corporate firewalls filter out websites in real-time by looking for keywords. This is done with a computer program, not people checking every website that is visited.

China's firewall will block websites, except for those that have a registration number. The ones with the registration numbers are allowed through the filter. It's a simple system.

You really need to take a look at internet censorship in China before you post on this again. My god, the gov't actually announces in the newspaper that there are people actively "policing" the web. The latest announcement was an increase in the new force that patrols chat rooms and discussion boards to post information favorable to the CCP.

Let me say that again: the Chinese gov't itself announces through the Chinese print media that it actively censors the internet. If you disagree, tell it to Beijing.

Here's a translated article. Excerpt:

This new "news propaganda team" was built up from the propaganda structure in Suqian City. The 26 Internet commentators came from the Suqian City Committee Propaganda Department, the Suqian City District Committee Propaganda Departments and various Municipal departments.
(...)
"The Internet commentators will lead public opinion as ordinary netizens. (i.e. without revealing their official capacity - mindseye) This is important, and it is also the most effective way." Ma Zhichun emphasized. According to the "Practical ideas on Suqian City Internet opinion," the Internet commentators has the option of using the status of official spokespersons when something major breaks out in order to clarify the truth.

The young Lu Ruchao has the job of being the "opinion police" at the Internet chatroom.
(...)
According to the document "Practical ideas on Suqian City Internet opinion," the City Committee Propaganda will establish the "Internet Administration Office" and "Internet News Administration Office" to manage the daily activities of the Internet commentators. There will be periodic communications meetings on news topics. At the end of each year, the job performances of the Internet commentators will be evaluated for the annual appraisals and feedback

A staff of 26 performs this one aspect of internet "policing" in this one small town. What do you think the numbers are nationally? The gov't says 30,000. I suspect that's a big exaggeration, but it's a major and very active effort.