Tiannanmen Massacre Anniversary

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


When the Party is the government is the capitalist...

So we're agreed that child labor is a problem created by capitalism.

[Kuciwalker]

The Party has always been the capitalist, whatever the system. It controls all the capital.

[pchang]

Child labor has existed for as long as humanity has been human. Only under capitalism have we been able to produce enough to declare child labor unnecessary and undesirable.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Agathon

He rammed us.

I can only imagine the response the Chinese would receive if they did the same.

Self righteous hypocrites.

(...)
Nice little semantic game. If Chinese aircraft routinely did the same to you, you'd whine like stuck pigs.

The only reason the Chinese aren't doing it today is because they can't. They simply lack the military capability. If they had it, they would do it. For example, you may recall that a Chinese sub was chased out of Japanese waters a few months ago.

I'll also add that the Soviets did in fact "routinely do the same" for quite some years, using Bear bombers. No American whining, at least as I recall. Just the same kind of cowboy-games that got Wang Wei into trouble.

[mindseye]

Regarding child labor in China, I think basically it is another example of how weak or spotty Beijing's control over much of the country really is.

The central government's leverage is weakest in the poor, rural and remote provinces (that is, in most of the country). It's in these hard-scrabble underdeveloped places where things like child labor can occur, even flourish, under the watch of local cadres -- who typically are somehow personally financially benefitting from the operation (as they would from any major financial activity occurring in their fiefdom).

The central gov't must squirrel away its political capital for things like fighting the SARS outbreak (after it became public, anyway). Otherwise, it's typical "control" is often more like the current "Girls are important, too" campaign happening through much (most?) of the country.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by pchang
Child labor has existed for as long as humanity has been human. Only under capitalism have we been able to produce enough to declare child labor unnecessary and undesirable.

There's a massive difference between a kid working on the family farm and a kid working in a factory.

Families value their children. For factory owners, kids are just a piece of the machinery to be used and then discarded when the kid can no longer do the job.

[pchang]

One would hope so, but the reality often falls quite short of your impression.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Tingkai


And maybe China want to enforce the laws, as can be seen in the pilot project on child trafficking mentioned in the article.

The problem is money. The factory owners can bribe local officials. It happens all the time. Dissidents usually don't have the money for bribes.

The corruption is part of the transition into a market society. If the change is done quickly, which many people here advocate, then there is a risk of ending up like Russia. If it is done methodically, as advocated by people like Joseph Stiglitz, a nobel-winner in economics, then fewer problems are created.

The problem is one of focus. China spends enough energy to take care of this problem (or any other you care to name) trying to stifle discussion, dissent, political freedom, etc. ruthlessly. Like the U.S.' war on drugs it is an effort that is wasteful and doomed to fail. Unlike the U.S.' war on drugs it can't even claim a hint of moral authority.

[Tingkai]

How much money does China spend on stiffling freedom?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Are you talking acutal expenditures or opportunity cost missed out on as a consequence of said tactics?

[Bosh]

Well if they sent every chatroom monitor out to look for child labor....

[Tingkai]

Hard to send a computer program to look for child labour.

[DaShi]

Does China actually publish those numbers? I wouldn't think so.

[DaShi]

I guess you could just make some up.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Hard to send a computer program to look for child labour.

Someone has to identify the threat before the program can be written, someone has to write the programs and modify them, someone has to identify any countermeasures that are taken, someone has to intimidate anyone who is caught breaking the unwritten laws, someone has to arrest those who refuse to be intimidated, someone has to hold kangaroo court sessions, someone has to guard the prisoners etc. ad nauseum. And as Ogie pointed out, the greatest costs are the opportunity costs of all this wasted energy by people who are largely better educated than average.