Gibraltarian Civ.

[Mercator]

So for all the laymen around here, what IS the status of those Spanish enclaves in Morrocco (nevermind the Spanish islands and regions, that's a rather different issue, or better said, a more obviously different issue)?

Last time I heard, by the way, when the people of Gibraltar were asked in a referendum whether they wanted to join Spain, an overwhelming majority said NO. I'm only working from memory here, so maybe I'm wrong... But what's the point of any sort of discussion about who Gibraltar belongs to or should belong to, when none of the Gibraltarians want to join Spain?

[Jay Bee]

It's not the people Merc, it's the territory. For all we care, they can continue being Brits for the rest of their lives.

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Mercator
So for all the laymen around here, what IS the status of those Spanish enclaves in Morrocco (nevermind the Spanish islands and regions, that's a rather different issue, or better said, a more obviously different issue)?

Ceuta and Melilla have the same status than another territory of Spain. He are 2 of the 'Comunidades Autonomas' (something like landers in Germany). Ceuta and Melilla are part of Spain before Morrocco exits. There is not a treaty were Morroco give Spain the cities, becuase the countr didn't exists. But there is a teatry (a international teatry) about Gibraltar...

Originally posted by Mercator
Last time I heard, by the way, when the people of Gibraltar were asked in a referendum whether they wanted to join Spain, an overwhelming majority said NO. I'm only working from memory here, so maybe I'm wrong... But what's the point of any sort of discussion about who Gibraltar belongs to or should belong to, when none of the Gibraltarians want to join Spain?

Yes, It's true. The majority of people from Gilbartar doesn't desire be part of Spain... Although I'll be happy with Gribaltar part of Spain, my only ambition in this matter is that Gribaltar obey the international laws and the Uthrect Treaty of early 18th.

For example: the airport of Gribaltar is built on Spanish territory...

[Jacobite1688]

Juan Carlos should claim the Treaty of Utrect has been violated and is null, then he should claim the vaccant throne of France, jejeje!

[Estilpón]

The use of international treaties stays, does not concern the time that happens.

btw, the foreign office have declassified a secret document of the 60 on Gibraltar, a very interesting document: the political errors of the UK goverment about Gibraltar: constitution, political institucions and anothers...

[Jay Bee]

First claim has been made several times. The repeated violations of the Treaty by the British constitutes the core of the Spanish position on this matter. What Yaroslav is true, they pushed away the border several times, last time to make room for an airport. The amazing thing is that the British have never acknowledged their treacherous tactics, despite there is plenty of info on that.

As to the second, Philip V already laid claim to the throne of France in the late 1700s. The current heir to the French throne is not Juan Carlos himself but a son of his late cousin, whose name fortunately I can't remember.

[Estilpón]

Originally posted by Mercator
But what's the point of any sort of discussion about who Gibraltar belongs to or should belong to, when none of the Gibraltarians want to join Spain?

The territory is the important point, it's subject to international treaty. If the people who lives in Gibraltar now they want to be british, OK no problem, they are about 30,000 people...

But nobody asked the people who were wanted to be in 1704... or 60's

[Heresson]

OK it's just a troll...
My views are a bit different. Still, that's something that You should think about. It's worth your time!

[Heresson]

Aha! Post more in English.
And I'm sorry that it's "Everyone hates Heresson" again...

[Mercator]

OK, I see... So Gibraltar is pretty much illegal property of the British.
Can't the Spanish officially give Gibraltar to the British, and make some sort of deal about the territory to prevent further expansion? After all, it's not very likely Spain will get it back anyway.

[Jacobite1688]

Originally posted by Mercator
OK, I see... So Gibraltar is pretty much illegal property of the British. Can't the Spanish officially give Gibraltar to the British, and make some sort of deal about the territory to prevent further expansion?

Well, it was legal property of England, immoral perhaps, but legal. It has been suggested here that terms of the deal have been broken and the posession should be voided.

Originally posted by Mercator
After all, it's not very likely Spain will get it back anyway.

This is the EXACT opposite of what evryone in this forum wants to hear.

[Heresson]

"It's not the people Merc, it's the territory. For all we care, they
can continue being Brits for the rest of their lives."

That's not the best way to convince someone that Gabal at-Tariq
should belong to Spain,.. After all You can say it about any other land, anyone can do it.

[Mercator]

This is the EXACT opposite of what evryone in this forum wants to hear.

That's what I suspected... If it were true this discussion probably wouldn't exist. The problem really is, somehow the Spanish and British find this little piece of rock very interesting, and both want it.

[Jacobite1688]

The problem really is, somehow the Spanish and British find this little piece of rock very interesting, and both want it.

Really, there are still other people who want it as well. On of my friends, a non-civer but a genius when the subject of politics comes up, read the posts in this forum and e-mailed me:

This brings to mind (Osama) bin Laden's remark in a videotape concerning the "tragedy of Andalusia." Just as there are (American) Southerners still "fighting" the (American) Civil War, there are Muslims who continue to consider Spain an
eternal Islamic endowment ("waqf").

That makes three claimers by my count.

[Mercator]

But isn't that rather a religious issue, not a political one. I imagine they only want Spain to become a Muslim state. While it could very well remain like it is now beside that. Not that this is very likely... And it's not really a Gibraltar issue then, but more generally a Spain issue.