Gibraltarian Civ.

[Kramsib]

:eech: Wow, I am a complete ignorant of History compared to these guys, but I thank them very much because I am learning a lot from them.

That's good,

[Jacobite1688]

Originally posted by jasev
Granada was a spanish kingdom; their rulers were spanish, so like their inhabitants. When the spanish kings conquered it, they knew that and added the kingdom to the new state, but the kingdom of Granada still existed, like the kingdom of Sevilla or the kingdom of Navarra (conquered about 1517). Granada was a moslim kingdom, but this is part of our cultural legacy.

A HA! I think I have figured out where we are crossing our thoughts. It is my perception, and I think the prevailing perception in the English speaking world, that the peoples who occupied parts of Southern Spain from 711 until 1492 were non-Spanish, in a word: foreigners. As non-Christians in the age of Christendom, they were outsiders in Spain as such.

The reconquista is seen as part of the great defense of the West
against the East, part of the Crusades. You, and perhaps Spain as a whole, seem to see it as a Civil War: Spainish kingdoms versus Spainish Kingdoms.

If, in fact, the perception in Spain is that these peoples were somehow Spanish because they lived in and ruled a kingdom that would one day be or was at one time a part of Spain (from your comments it appears to be so) then yes, Gibraltar has ALWAYS been and will ALWAYS be a part of Spain. This would be true all through history, going back to the time of the Carthaginians. We simply were not thinking along the same lines. I hope this is what you are getting at.

Now, do I understand you correctly?

[jasev]

Now, do I understand you correctly?

Perfect

But it's not so simple as you said. When Tarik and Muza crossed the sea and invaded almost the whole peninsula, they were invaders. Al-Andalus became a province of the mighty arab empire, ruled by the Ummayads in Damascus. But in 773, the last descendant of the Ummayads (the others had been killed by the Abbasids family) achieved to stablish an independent emirate, whose capital city was Cordoba. From 773 to about 1000, there was an independent moslim kingdom (first, an emirate, finally a caliphate). It was ruled by arab families, but they had born in Spain, so like their citizens. William the Conqueror was French, but it's sure that his descendants were english. The same with Abd-Al-Rahman; he was arab, he had born in Siria, but his grandson Abd-Al-Rahman III was spanish. Aprox. in 1000 dc, the calipathe collapsed and a lot of little kingdoms appeared: Toledo, Zaragoza, Valencia, Granada, Sevilla, Murcia, etc. These were true spanish moslim kingdoms, tho had diplomatic relationships with the christian kingdoms of Castilla, Aragón and Navarra.
Then a tribe from Morocco, the Almoravids, invaded the moslim spain (and a part of the christian, too) in 1086. They were defeated by another tribe, the Almohads, who were defeated in 1212 (this was really a crusade, and many european troops joined the spanish army to defeat the almohads). In 1212, the sultan of the almohads died in battle, and the cities revolted; the little moslim kingdoms (taifas) appeared again. From 1212 to 1492, the moslim kingdoms in spain where truly spanish.

See what I mean? During that 780 years, most of the time the moslims where as spanish as the christians. Today, spain owes a lot to his moslim legacy. A lot of spanish words have arab roots. For example, river Guadalquivir comes from "Ouad-al-Kevir", i.e, "the grand river".

[kIndal]

Jacobite, first welcome to the forum and then please read this phrase that was said by a Muslim city governor of Mojacar in 1488, before to be conquested by Castilian-Aragonese armies:

"Christian...I am so Spanish as you. When we are more than 700 years living in Spain, you said: "you are foreigner, return to the sea". In Africa wait us a unfriendly coast that sure will say to us the same with more reason: "you are foreigner, sail from you came and return to your lands."
So, we are here between two coasts that negate us the bread, the neighbourness and the help...
Say it to your kings...I, before surrender as a cobard, will die as a Spanish."

es que me emociona tanto esta frase

[Thorgal]

Es absurdo decir que alguien que lleva más de 700 años en un pais es extranjero, si esto fuera asi, a los americanos por ejemplo les faltarian todavia 500 años para dejar de ser británicos, no?

[Estilpón]

Originally posted by kIndal

es que me emociona tanto esta frase

oh yea!!!

greetings Jacobite, welcome to Spanish Civ2 Forum

[Jay Bee]

Cute sentence, che.... write it down in Spanish, andele!

It's very true that now most Spaniards feel Al-Andalus with great appreciation. Without them we wouldn't be what we are today. They are "us" as much as El Cid, Queen Isabella or Hernan Cortes. That feeling of being all members of one only entity is also what explains the 'paternalism' with which Spaniards generally treat the Portuguese... but wait, that's another story. Hope Zealot et al are not reading this

[kIndal]

Cute sentence, che.... write it down in Spanish, andele!

"Cristiano...Yo soy tan español como tu. Cuando llevamos los de mi raza mas de 700 años viviendo en España, nos deciis: "sois extranjeros, volved al mar"
En africa nos aguarda una costa inhospitalaria que de fijo nos dira lo mismo que vosotros con mas razon: "sois extranjeros. Cruzad el mar por donde vinisteis y regresad a vuestra tierra".
Henos aqui entre dos costas que nos niegan el pan, la vencidad y el abrigo...
Diselo a tus reyes...Yo, antes que entregarme como un cobarde, sabre morir como un español."

[Thorgal]

[Jacobite1688]

Originally posted by thorgalaeg
Es absurdo decir que alguien que lleva más de 700 años en un pais es extranjero, si esto fuera asi, a los americanos por ejemplo les faltarian todavia 500 años para dejar de ser británicos, no?

American society is undeniably a continuation of British institutions and culture. More than in other countries, we have had a substantial injection of other peoples (Latin Americans, Africans, ITALIAN AMERICANS (like me). This has helped to differentiate us from the British, yet I still feel like, as a people, Americans have more in common with those in modern England, or even Spain, than the Spainiards did with the Almohads during the reconquesta. The common feeling, however submerged today, of being an Heir to the great Roman civiliztion seems to be what has defined an ‘'Outsider'‘ in the West for the last two milleniums. The concept of ‘'Barbarian'‘ has died a very hard death.

Originally posted by Jay Bee
It's very true that now most Spaniards feel Al-Andalus with great appreciation. Without them we wouldn't be what we are today. They are "us" as much as El Cid, Queen Isabella or Hernan Cortes.

As I said earlier, I am speaking from my personal perspective. I can do nothing else. I now know how people in Spain see their history. Try as I might, however, I can not see how the Muslim Kingdoms can be classified as Western or Latin and, por eso, Spainish. I am NOT saying that my perspective is anymore right or wrong then yours, I am just giving my perspective - one that is probably shared by many non-Spanish Westerners. This has been very intersting thus far. Espero que esta conversación continúe.

[jasev]

Americans have more in common with those in modern England, or even Spain, than the Spainiards did with the Almohads during the reconquesta

The spaniards had nothing in common with the Almohads during the reconquesta because the Almohads mere warriors from Morocco; they invaded the spanish moslim kingdoms after defeating the Almoravids. They weren't spanish but foreign invaders.
But they stayed in Spain only between 1147 and 1212.

[Jacobite1688]

Originally posted by jasev


The spaniards had nothing in common with the Almohads

That is just a specific example to demonstrate a general point, amigo. Re-read my post and you'll see what I was getting at. I am yet, in all of my studies, to ever run across an instance DURING the reconquista where a Christian Spainard, for that matter any European, refered to ANY of the Muslim Kingdoms in Spain as "Spanish Kingdoms" as such. Moslem Kingdoms in Spain, perhaps, but not Spanish Kingdoms, if you understand me. They were all ALWAYS, to the last, seen as foregin invaders. If you know of a reference to the contrary, I would like to see it. Point me to one, por favor.

[Jay Bee]

Jacobite, no one argues against you point. But what the history books may tell you has little to do with what Spaniards feel today. I think the Spanish society as a whole has recently become so tolerant as to acknowledge the "Spainicity" of all the peoples who settled in here, regardless of their creed or race.

Still, lemme find something in my books. I seem to recall that during Abd-al-Rahman's period (the guys who broke ties with Damascus/Baghdad), the Spanish Christians held him and his emirate in higher esteem than Charlemagne's kingdom. The latter was seen as an invader, the former as an infidel Spaniard.

[Jacobite1688]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Jacobite, no one argues against you point.

I am not so sure.

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Jay Bee [/SIZE
But what the history books may tell you has little to do with what Spaniards feel today. I think the Spanish society as a whole has recently become so tolerant as to acknowledge the "Spainicity" of all the peoples who settled in here, regardless of their creed or race.

Your point is in agreement with what I wrote several posts ago:

Originally posted by Jacobite1688

As I said earlier, I am speaking from my personal perspective. I can do nothing else. I now know how people in Spain see their history. Try as I might, however, I can not see how the Muslim Kingdoms can be classified as Western or Latin and, por eso, Spainish. I am NOT saying that my perspective is anymore right or wrong then yours, I am just giving my perspective - one that is probably shared by many non-Spanish Westerners.

So we agree then, do we?

[Jay Bee]

I think so, but let's see what jasev has to say. He's from Seville, so you never know