I just finished reading a history book about the founding of Islam......

[Shi Huangdi]

You are correct Vesayen, probably in charcter Islam is not a peaceful religion. I think it is important however we work to strengthen those who want to make Islam practiced as a peaceful religion, and weaken the Islamic fundamentalists.

[Bereta_Eder]

It will propably take some time. 1.000 years of evolution give or take if (christianity) is any indication.

[Az]

Oh no, it's the "evolution" argument...

What makes people think that religions evolve according to some sort of preset timetables?

[Ned]

Re: I just finished reading a history book about the founding of Islam......

Originally posted by Vesayen
Published by national geographic, my thoughts?

I didnt know the religion of peace had a kick off near constant wafare since its inception......my school books somehow left that out.........im sure it was an honest mistake, right?

I am SHOCKED, utterly SHOCKED that you would learn a PC view of history from school!

As I have said here before, I was similarly shocked to find my daughter one day telling me that Kennedy was the best president ever and that Nixon was the worst - because he STARTED the Vietnam War.

Now turning to private schools, I learned a very "filtered" view of history because I went to catholic schools 'til college. Imagine how I felt when I read Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire."

Yes Mohammed was constantly at war. So were his followers for more than a 100 years. They conquered to spread his faith and to acquire the right to the 20% every conquered person had to tithe, not to mention the women.

I have asked this here before, but have never received an answer: When did Islam become peaceful?

I don't believe it ever did. It was merely defeated by stronger powerers, mostly from Europe. The followers of its faith used forced conversions, ethnic cleansing and genocide well into modern times.

Do you think the Islamic goal re Israel has anything really to do with providing equal rights to the Pals. No. From history we know what the real objective all along was: genocide with subjugation of any survivors. Quotations to this effect by Islamic leaders are pandemic.

[Az]

Ned, in the time of the crusades, Islam was more tolerant than christianity. This has nothing to do with its' nature, since both religions are agressively expansionistic, but more to do with the level of civilization and education of its' followers. At the time, the muslims were more educated and civilized than the chrisitians.

The turning point of this balance of power, and the struggle between those two religions was the Mongol invasion of the middle east. It created chaos here, and set the place centuries back.

[Ned]

Saying that Islam is peaceful is like saying communism is peaceful.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I think Islam, like christianty, is an "imperial" religion, i.e a religion that has been actively used by a large or growing empire as a tool for political and cultural dominance.

Islam is no more bound to violence than christianty. The agressive expansion of the countries that called themselves Muslim was violent. It is a very different story.

The problem with Islam is that it has a bigger political dimension than modern Christianity. In almost every Islamic country there are fundamentalistic forces (of different strength of course) who demand Islamic states where the religion dominates policy/politics. This is rarely the case in Christian/Western countries (at least not in the same dimensions) anymore.

[Ben Kenobi]

Fine. I admit it was a poorly aimed attempt at "living up" the conversation. Pathetically failed.

A troll admitting that he is a troll?

Ming doing the DL dance.

What's the third sign of the apocalypse?

[Spiffor]

Ned :
In Islam, there are three kind of Jihads (holy wars) :
The most important is clearly the intenral Jihad, i.e the struggle of one individual against his own temptations and evil.
The second, definitely less important is the major external Jihad : it means actively looking for other Muslims to follow the "good virtues"
the thirs and least important is the minor external Jihad, i.e the effort to convert the infidels, even if it means war.
The third and least important Jihad is the only Jihad we westerners are interested in.

IIRC, the Arabic expansion in Europe was stopped at Poitiers in 732. The Arabs, and their religion as well, became mostly peaceful and enlightened once their territory was settled, despite having to fight against the invading crusaders, and despite much internal struggle between the various Arabic factions.
This growing lack of military prowess and cohesion eventually led the Arabs to be subjugated by the Ottomans.
The Arabs aren't more bend to hatred or love than any other folk on this planet : when the good catholic Isabella expelled all the Jews from Spain, most of them took refuge in Arabic countries, notably Morocco. Jews were accepted in these countries and had thriving communities, far away from the European intolerance.
During WW2, the King of Morocco, depite eing under the French (hence Vichy) protectorate, harbored many Jews far away from the nazi menace.

If I might tell, the western culture you love so much was in constant warfare even during the enlightenment, and the only century of relative peace the West ever knew was the 19th century. The now peaceful Japanese people were in semi-constant warfare during their whole medieval period, until 1600 when Tokugawa unified Japan (there were some short periods of unifications behind one Shogun before), and Japanese Samurais tried to invade their neighbours as soon as their civil war was over. I don't know about China's history, or precolombian history, but it makes littke doubt these countries were riled by war in the past. My point is : all cultures in the past were more or less warlike, and it is absurd to think it means they'll be warlike for all eternity.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BeBro
The problem with Islam is that it has a bigger political dimension than modern Christianity. In almost every Islamic country there are fundamentalistic forces (of different strength of course) who demand Islamic states where the religion dominates policy/politics. This is rarely the case in Christian/Western countries (at least not in the same dimensions) anymore.

The modern expression of muslim fundamentalism dates back to the foundation of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt pre-WW2, it is hardly an eternal trait of the Muslim religion.

My opinion on the issue is that the Arab elites will want to use the religious/cultural tool to overcome their biggest hindrance to their raise to power, which is the division of the Arab world.

Most Arabic countries have relied, until very recently, on western-like nationalism to unite their population. Iraq was a laic country. The power from Assad, Nasser, Ben Ali and Algerian leaders didn't stem from the clergy. Western-like nationalism hasn't worked, and the Arab population is using and trusting its religion more and more to channel their demands of might. At least, that's how I see it

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Ned
I have asked this here before, but have never received an answer: When did Islam become peaceful?

Thank you for asking the question I was afraid to ask....I dont have a suit capable of surviving temperatures of 4,000 degrees centegrade heh.

[gsmoove23]

Dude what schoolbooks are you reading, where do you live? My schoolbooks made it seem like all Islam was was a warlike empire that gave the good christians heart palpatations and that was public school.

[Bereta_Eder]

It is a bit ironic that people talk about Islam being "aggresive" when the latest wars are all being conducted by a christian country.
Just saying.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Dude what schoolbooks are you reading, where do you live? My schoolbooks made it seem like all Islam was was a warlike empire that gave the good christians heart palpatations and that was public school.

It told about how a "peacefull" theological idea came about, briefly talked about how it spread(never mentioning warfare then the chapter ended........

[orange]

What's the third sign of the apocalypse?

MLeonard's second coming...

...oh ****!