I just finished reading a history book about the founding of Islam......

[Ned]

Of course the "Arabs" became "peaceful" after 732. I believe they sacked Rome in 840 and waged aggressive war across the Meditterrean until they were conquered by the Turks, who continued their aggessive wars against Europe.

The greatest change for "peace" occured when Ataturk came to power and forced the mullah's out of the government of Turkey. However, the Arabs, once freed of Turkish control, soon took up the wardrums again. It began with Israel. It magnified in Afghanistan with the war against the USSR. Now it has reached full blossom under Osama bin Laden.

Stop trying to divert attention from the warlike nature of Islam. It never really has known an era of peace in its whole history.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Spiffor

The modern expression of muslim fundamentalism dates back to the foundation of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt pre-WW2, it is hardly an eternal trait of the Muslim religion.

But it can only be understood from the strong relation between religion and politics that was significant for (most) Islamic states since the first caliphate....

The question is, why didn´t this relation change much, while it became less important in Christian countries over the centuries.

[gsmoove23]

When was Islam proclaimed peaceful? No one said it in this thread and the only people I've ever heard state it are defensive muslims or peaceful muslims who of course want to think the best of their religion and have faith that it holds up their ideals of peace.

[Ned]

Originally posted by paiktis22
It is a bit ironic that people talk about Islam being "aggresive" when the latest wars are all being conducted by a christian country.
Just saying.

But not in the name of christianity - instead in the cause of freedom!

[Az]

I am a satanist. I think that satanism is a religion of peace. Satan is just misunderstood. All he wanted is that god would stop practicing his autoritarian ways of governing the world. Satan wanted to introduce pluralism, and a healthy criticizing opinion into the discussion. So, of course, god, as any other tyrant would've done, expelled him!

All we want is to practice our virgin sarcifice, and our mass orgies in peace. Why can't you understand this, and leave us alone? Everyone's entitled to an opinion of his own? right? Please, let us be.











I love religions.

[Ned]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
When was Islam proclaimed peaceful? No one said it in this thread and the only people I've ever heard state it are defensive muslims or peaceful muslims who of course want to think the best of their religion and have faith that it holds up their ideals of peace.

Gsmoove -- President Bush declared Islam to be a peaceful religion. He has since repeated it many times.

I suspect this is politics coupled with an once of truth and a pound of wishful thinking.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Azazel
All we want is to practice our virgin sarcifice, and our mass orgies in peace.

How can you have great orgies when you waste all those virgins for making sacrifices.

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Ned
Of course the "Arabs" became "peaceful" after 732. I believe they sacked Rome in 840 and waged aggressive war across the Meditterrean until they were conquered by the Turks, who continued their aggessive wars against Europe.

The greatest change for "peace" occured when Ataturk came to power and forced the mullah's out of the government of Turkey. However, the Arabs, once freed of Turkish control, soon took up the wardrums again. It began with Israel. It magnified in Afghanistan with the war against the USSR. Now it has reached full blossom under Osama bin Laden.

Stop trying to divert attention from the warlike nature of Islam. It never really has known an era of peace in its whole history.

All your examples seem to bring up times when they were in conflict with other powers. Yeah, like when they sacked Rome the Romans just didn't know what hit 'em. They were all sniffing flowers. Agressive wars across the mediterranean my ass, like the Christians were busy turning the other cheek.

And perhaps USSR's invasion of Afghanistan is simply a radicalizing cause, not simply one more example.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Azazel
I am a satanist. All we want is to practice our virgin sarcifice, and our mass orgies in peace. Why can't you understand this, and leave us alone? Everyone's entitled to an opinion of his own? right? Please, let us be.

Except for the virgin part, there appears to be a lot in common between satanism and MTVism.

[BeBMan]

The Arabs sacked Rome in 840AD - is that true? Never heard of it....

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Ned


Gsmoove -- President Bush declared Islam to be a peaceful religion. He has since repeated it many times.

I suspect this is politics coupled with an once of truth and a pound of wishful thinking.

Oh ya think its just politics? No, Bush just loves Muslims, he reads the Koran every night. This is the same man that called Sharon a man of peace. The statement most famously was used to stop a violent US backlash against muslims within the country, then said again and again to ensure the world that he was just joking when he said crusade. So again, where are these massive amounts of non-muslim people proclaiming Islam as a religion of peace? I certainly don't and I'm as bleeding heart lefty as they come!

[Az]

How can you have great orgies when you waste all those virgins for making sacrifices

We sacrifice the excesses, leaving the best to ourselves. Satan doesn't care how they look, after all.

Except for the virgin part, there appears to be a lot in common between satanism and MTVism.

I should tune in to MTV more often, then, I guess.

[BeBMan]

Well, again to the Arabs - this timeline http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/romans.html doesn´t mention any Arab military operation against Rome in that time. Don´t know how good this source is, but it would surprise me totally when they indeed sacked Rome.

[Spiffor]

Ned :
Please do not confuse everything. Turks are not Arabs, neither are Afghanis.

Today's muslims, and Arabs specifically, have a siginificant chunk of their population fighting against the humiliation they fear from the agressive presence of Israel or the constant defeats of their countries against Israel or their American bosees. (I'm not saying these conceptions are right. I'm saying they exist).

As such, I think many Arabs are fighting to get their old greatness again. Such a fight finds easy tools to federate :
- common enemy : Israel, the US
- common religion and culture.

Afghans didn't go to open war against the US, they simply harbored fellow (Arabic) Muslims fighting the "great Satan", which is quite expectable from a religious regime. Afghans did put up a fight against the Soviets that invaded their country. They have done it too against the British that invaded their country.
Pakistanis (non-Arabic) are too busy settling old business against India to bother with the US.
Iran (non-Arabic) has dropped the talk about opposing the western decadence at all costs, since they have signed interesting deals with European companies, and would have done the same with American companies if the US had been more tolerant towards them. The "great Satan" has become a mere propaganda phrase.

It leads us to think some Arabs, and not whole Islam, are at war against Israel and the US. The aim of fundamentalist organizations is to make as many Arabs as possible eager to fight this war, rather than simply looking for a better daily life. Terrorism is today's weapon, because it is the only weapon that works to some extent. The Arab-Israeli wars have shown us the Arabs are currently unable to match western militaries in a "fairly" battle.

[Ned]

No doubt, gsmoove, the Europeans began to push the Arabs out in the long wars of liberation in Spain, the large naval battles in the Mediterranean, the wars against the African pirates, and finally, the conquest and colonization of Africa by France, Italy, and Spain.

In recent history, we see the Serb efforts to push the Islamic peoples of Bosnia and Kosovo out of greater Serbia.

Yet, the wars between Islam and the West are two-way streets. But for most of history, Europe was on the defensive.

I simply have never seen a dramatic statement by some grand Caliph that Islam must now live peacefully with its neighbors. Rather, Ataturk had to overthrow the Caliph in order that Turkey begin to live in peace with its neighbors.