Was Jesus for real?

[Sava]

It's a matter of faith, not proof.
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen". - Hebrews 11:1

Ironically, this is the preface in the book "How to create a mindless following -- FOR Dummies".

I'm just being stupid now!

[Dauphin]

[Alex]

Is it all? I mean, is God merely a young guy wearing a black T-shirt? Frankly, I was expecting more.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Alexnm
Is it all? I mean, is God merely a young guy wearing a black T-shirt? Frankly, I was expecting more.

Well, I had to choose a material form that humans would understand and recognize.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Spiffor
To me, it seems very probable the founder of the Christian sect (it was a sect at that time) had his name all over the place in the founding tomes.
I suppose Jesus was a real charismatic guy who united several followers behind his guidance. I don't imagine several people writing similar stuff on the life of one guy if he hadn't been real.
Every religion needs a founder, and I don't see the Saints being them.

Except Jesus didn't found Christianity; Paul did with his letters.

[Jon Miller]

Yes

Jon Miller

[Az]

TEF pointed out a very important thing. It seems that Paul was the actual historical figure to make Christianity more than just a stream of Judaism, he was the one to make up the story of the ressurrection, and all the other supposed miracles. But yes, I believe that Jesus did exist, but so far, all we can make are educated guesses.

[Sava]

This is my mental picture of the historical Jesus:

A real smart guy who had some real good, moral ideas. So well-spoken about them that he eventually accumulated an band of followers that worshipped him for his views. When he died, his saddened followers decided to immortalize him by writing mythical parables about him. This cult eventually spread among the lower classes and least educated Romans until it was so popular that Constantine made this cult a state-religion. After the fall of Rome, during the Dark Ages, a powerful, aristocratic group of clergy gained control of resources and monarchs used the idea of "Divine Right" to come to power. As kingdoms grew and became more powerful, they expanded and became empires. England created a colony in a newly discovered continent. Eventually, the people wanted to practice their own version of religion fled and created a group of colonies in order to practice their religion. Over the years, criminals and indentured servants came to these colonies. They grew and then claimed independence from England....

okay somewhere I flew way off course and this became "The History of America"... I'm done... sorry!

[Ming]

And the same warning holds true here.

If you want to DISCUSS the topic... do so.

If you want to spam or just poke fun at people's beliefs... you will get restricted.

[Az]

did you mean me? I am sorry, if I insulted anyone.

[Ben Kenobi]

Those are the wrong arguments, Slowwhand, Plato.

It's fine if you believe without seeing, as Christ says to Thomas:

"Blessed are those who believe without seeing."

However, for these skeptics, Christ provides lots more evidence of his existence.

Boris, Sava, et al:

Read my source from the other thread:

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_TC.html

They provide 5 independent extra-biblical sources citing the existence of Jesus, including two references from Josephus.

The most accurate account comes from Tacitus:

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

[Sava]

I don't doubt the existence of the man, Jesus Christ. I doubt the existence of the mythical "Son of God", Jesus Christ. Hopefully that makes some sense because I rarely do.

[Ben Kenobi]

I doubt the existence of the mythical "Son of God", Jesus Christ. Hopefully that makes some sense because I rarely do.

Sava: It makes you more moderate than Boris.

Ming:

Don't ban these people for my sake.

[Sava]

Wow... I've never been called a moderate before

My take on Jesus, religion, etc. is: We can't be 100% sure if religious texts are true. We can't be 100% if religious icons existed, or in the fashion described in holy scripture. So why can't we focus on teaching the morals rather than debating the existence of people who may or may not have existed thousands of years ago in a different country.

my 2 cents

[Ben Kenobi]

My take on Jesus, religion, etc. is: We can't be 100% sure if religious texts are true. We can't be 100% if religious icons existed, or in the fashion described in holy scripture.

By that reasoning, we cannot do history. We cannot be 100% sure that Caesar crossed the Rubicon, yet no historian would contradict the evidence in favour.

The question is not whether you believe in the Bible 100%, but whether the Bible accounts seem the most reasonable explanation. If one were to rate the Bible as a historical source, it would stand above all the others for this time period. By this reasoning, we should more readily believe in the Biblical accounts, then in any other history of these times.

So why can't we focus on teaching the morals rather than debating the existence of people who may or may not have existed thousands of years ago in a different country.

Part of the problem is why listen to Christ if he is just another moral teacher on par with any other? Why trust in his morals if he is just another person? Also, if you believe Christ is right about some things it becomes difficult to reject him in the other things. Christ did not claim to be a good moral teacher, he claimed to be God. If he is not God, then is it not foolish to believe in the teachings of a liar?