Was Jesus for real?

[Jack the Bodiless]

Because perhaps Paul was:

A) Hallucinating
B) Dreaming
C) Lying


This is a standard atheist argument.

C) - Would you die for a lie? It seems unreasonable to me that Paul would suffer torture if he knew that Christianity was a lie.

Therefore, we can conclude that Paul sincerely believed that he saw the risen christ.

Now what about the other 2 options.

How about option D, all of the above?

Here is my hypothesis.

1. Jesus existed, and his followers wouldn't accept his death, hence the rumor that he didn't stay dead. Also, he acted as a focus for myths that were already in circulation about others (just as Arthurian mythology absorbed other Romano-Celtic myths into itself).

2. Paul was a natural religious zealot type. All religions have examples. He just needed a path to follow. Christianity appealed to him because it was the religion of the moment: this also explains Paul's conviction that the Rapture was imminent. He wanted to be part of a happening religion, with major supernatural events in the recent past and the imminent future.

3. He hallucinated, while out on the road under a blazing sun.

4. After the event, his imagination and zeal caused him to magnify and exaggerate his own memory of what happened. He also continually "talked up" the story of what happened to him: he wanted to impress others with its significance. This is not unusual: there are many examples of modern zealots "lying for the Lord" in exactly the same way (fake miracles, creationist fabrications etc). This doesn't mean that they aren't genuine Christians: merely that they are undergoing self-delusion, a process similar to autohypnosis. They create propaganda to assist in their "just and holy cause", and then come to believe in it.

[XarXo]

E - None of the above ones.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Boy!

This thread exploded.

Starting with Boris:

Because perhaps Paul was:

A) Hallucinating
B) Dreaming
C) Lying


This is a standard atheist argument.

C) - Would you die for a lie? It seems unreasonable to me that Paul would suffer torture if he knew that Christianity was a lie.

Therefore, we can conclude that Paul sincerely believed that he saw the risen christ.

I call BS, because guess what--we have no idea how or why Paul died. There is no record of it. Christians of mythologized that he was executed under orders from Nero, but there is NO evidence of anything of the sort. Paul simply disappears from history. Any speculations on his demise are unfounded.

Now what about the other 2 options. *snip*

B) Dreaming seems unreasonable since Acts describes Paul as travelling on the road to Damascus before he sees the vision.

A) Could this be a Hallucination? No. A Hallucination would not blind Saul for 3 days. This leads me to reject all three of these alternate explanations in favour of Paul's testimony.

I certainly think these are less likely explanations (although, again, we have no way of knowing if the blindness is true, since that's only what Paul claims) than his just lying outright, yes.

Which passage? Consider the response of the Jews in the synagogue when Saul begins to preach.

You obviously didn't even read the link, as it was clearly referring to the Pharisees acting in defense of other Christians, not Paul.

[Frogman]

The Bible is a book like no other, reaching to the earliest recorded history. Whether you believe its inspired by God or not, it is worthy of study. The problem is that its just not as plain and simple as some would have you believe.

I've read it cover to cover and studied it for many years. If it was plain and simple I wouldn't still be trying to figure it out. Jack makes some good points. There are some inconsistancies and people draw different conclusions from the same material. I have several friends in my adult Sunday School class who I consider intellegent and yet their literal belief in the Bible leads them to defend a 6 day creation and dinosaurs on Noah's ark!

Either you accept there is a spiritual dimension or you don't. If you do, then you still are left trying to figure out how we as people fit into it. I'm a Christian, but I just won't stand up and say I have all the answers. We are all blind men trying to describe the elephant and come up short. But for me, the Bible is still the best picture we have.

http://www.kcmetro.cc.mo.us/pennvalley/biology/lewis/blindmen.htm