Mutual Respect

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Rothy
Boris, i have found you to be a very decent person here (hence my vote for yous some time back in that hall of fame milarky) but you are too sensative in regards to 'slurs' as you call them. Not long back you took offense to being called Queer, when most homosexual's consider this normal. It's understandable that you're sensative about this issue tho, just wish you were you more chilled about it.

Cheers
Matt

You don't seem to note the context under which a poster called me a "queer," as it was clearly done in a context of derision. Most homosexuals, btw, would certainly bristle at a heterosexual referring to them as queers, especially in the U.S. and Canada. Perhaps that is different in the U.K., I don't know.

But while the contexts of "queer" is debatable, I respectfully proffer that shirt lifter, fudge packer, uphill gardener, and poo pusher are a world apart in terms of offensiveness. Considering the imagery that is conjured up in most gays' minds when such slurs are used (don't suppose being strapped to a fence and beaten to death with a pistol is fun), I don't understand why people express surprise that gays bristle at their use, especially from sources wherein the intent is unknown. It's rather like walking up to a black stranger and calling him a ****** and being stunned when he is outraged.

[Frogman]

Respect is something you earn, not something you give, and it doesn't have to be mutual. I can respect lots of people who may not respect me because they don't know me or perhaps because I haven't earned it. I think you are confusing respect, with respecting the rights of others which of course should be mutual.

So far MrFun, you haven't earned my respect because your posts sound a bit whiny and childish. Shouting RESPECT ME, RESPECT ME, is a sure way not to get it.

For me, I disagree as well with the military policy on gays, however, I have to respect people who have the discipline to perform under the intense pressure of combat. Regardless of what faults a person has, I will always honor the respect that is earned by the veterans who fought for our county. Sure there are plenty of vets who are racist, homophobic idiots, but I have to give them their due for at least one honorable deed.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you sure, it's not the other way around ?

you give respect, get respect back.

Well said alva.

Boris, no one should call you names you don't want. If anyone picks on Boris' exceptional ability to service presidential members, they will have to answer to me. 'K?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by alva


Are you sure, it's not the other way around ?

you give respect, get respect back.

There are homosexuals who have respect for the military institution, by choosing to serve in a department, and establish a career.

Yet, if they were to express themselves as homosexuals the same way as heterosexuals express themselves, the military would not give back the same respect.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


You don't seem to note the context under which a poster called me a "queer," as it was clearly done in a context of derision. Most homosexuals, btw, would certainly bristle at a heterosexual referring to them as queers, especially in the U.S. and Canada. Perhaps that is different in the U.K., I don't know.

But while the contexts of "queer" is debatable, I respectfully proffer that shirt lifter, fudge packer, uphill gardener, and poo pusher are a world apart in terms of offensiveness. Considering the imagery that is conjured up in most gays' minds when such slurs are used (don't suppose being strapped to a fence and beaten to death with a pistol is fun), I don't understand why people express surprise that gays bristle at their use, especially from sources wherein the intent is unknown. It's rather like walking up to a black stranger and calling him a ****** and being stunned when he is outraged.

But Boris, this means that you and I are PC fanatics, not reasonable people.

[korn469]

But Boris, this means that you and I are PC fanatics, not reasonable people.

lol how true
i'm joking but anyways

the biggest problem i see with allowing homosexuals in the military without DADT, is the discomfort the other soldiers would feel, especially with situations like showers, changing clothes, etc.

they probably shouldn't feel that discomfort, and they certainly shouldn't let the discomfort they feel grow into violence or feelings like that, yet it would difficult to change the average recruit's perception, and maybe more trouble than to revoke DADT

if it was a perfect world i don't think we'd need DADT (much less a military) but it's not, so i don't know what a good solution is

[Dis]

gay people are so gay.

there I said it.

I have been meaning to get that off my chest for sometime.

[Shi Huangdi]

Serving in the military isn't an inherent natural right. The military exists to provide for the defense of our country, not to provide for equal opportunity. The decision on whether or not to admit gays into the military should be made by the military based on military issues, not based on whether we want to the military to be some morally pure institution as some conservative protestants might want, or whether we want the military to be the next frontier for equality and opportunity as some of the GLAAD crowd might want.

[BlackStone]

Originally posted by Rothy
While Equality for all is great, there are times you have to draw the line, and with the Army this is one of them. Many people in the Army are not intelligent (many are of course, but probably more are not) hence them joining the Army. They cannot appreciate that shoe shiners are normal (some struggle to grasp the concept of equality at all) , and trying to impose this on them will not help.


Shirt lifter's cannot really be compared with blacks either. One's ethic origin is a genetic specification, but it's one's own choice whether they want to pack fudge or not. Most people have by now understood that Race is something we're born with, it makes not a jot of difference to most things, and one doesnt have to explain thier colour. Many people however, still do not understand why one actually chooses to be an Uphill gardener, and hence there are going to be morale problems with both the Hetro's and the poo pushers.

[BlackStone]

Mr Fun,

Your argument sounds a little childish at this juncture. Surely it is better to leave such discussions when there is war ongoing (bearing in mind the average soldier does not make policy and they are the ones making the sacrifices).

I have to say that such opportunistic whining will only serve to undermine your position and argument.

Sorry but thats how I see it.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by MrFun


It's really simple -- you demand respect, give respect in return.

Following your rationale: You are demanding respect from homophobic soldiers, so you must give respect in return.

I agree with the sentence I quoted from you above, but I don't think you're practising what you're preaching.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Dissident
gay people are so gay.

there I said it.

I have been meaning to get that off my chest for sometime.

Just lift your shirt and let it out.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet




Following your rationale: You are demanding respect from homophobic soldiers, so you must give respect in return.

I agree with the sentence I quoted from you above, but I don't think you're practising what you're preaching.

I'm saying that right now, American veterans demand that we respect all military officers and soldiers.

While I can respect military officers and soldiers who are not homophobic bigots, I cannot respect those who are. Those who are not homophobic, but demand our repsect are not being hypocritical.

[Sava]

MrFun... your first sentence presented an excellent topic, but I don't understand how this is a "gay" issue? I think the "gay" issue with the military is different from the "protesting vs respect" issue, but somehow you mashed them together.

my 2 cents about respect for the military
As an American, you should have respect for the Armed Forces as an institution. That doesn't mean you have to like their internal policies. But respect them for their desire to fight to the death for your freedom. You should show respect for the individual veterans that fought and died for such freedom. You don't have to respect their political or moral beliefs pertaining to homosexuality or any other issue. You should show them respect. But this is America... you don't have to if you don't want to. I just hope that as Americans, people can differentiate between our valiant combat veterans and some bigots that happen to be in the military.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Sava
MrFun... your first sentence presented an excellent topic, but I don't understand how this is a "gay" issue? I think the "gay" issue with the military is different from the "protesting vs respect" issue, but somehow you mashed them together.

my 2 cents about respect for the military
As an American, you should have respect for the Armed Forces as an institution. That doesn't mean you have to like their internal policies. But respect them for their desire to fight to the death for your freedom. You should show respect for the individual veterans that fought and died for such freedom. You don't have to respect their political or moral beliefs pertaining to homosexuality or any other issue. You should show them respect. But this is America... you don't have to if you don't want to. I just hope that as Americans, people can differentiate between our valiant combat veterans and some bigots that happen to be in the military.

I'm not sure why this happens so often on Apolyton in debates, but it seems people always reiterate back to points that they already agree upon.

Yes, we need to differentiate between the bigots and those who are not. How can bigots claim to fight for freedom, is beyond me.