Christians: Bible commands on substances?

[Berzerker]

Obiwan -

The story does not say that the revellers became drunk, so why do you assume that they did?

The guest's commentary on wine and what hosts typically do. The guest said it is typical for the host to supply the better wine first and when the partyers were "well-drunk", follow with the inferior wine, but that Jesus reversed the order. If the first batch of wine was alcoholic, why would the second, superior batch supplied by Jesus be alcohol free? There is no indication alcohol was absent...and you still haven't provided evidence it was absent...

Like I said, a starting point. Why might the writer, and the thief testify that Christ is sinless? The thief did not witness the trials of Christ, yet he testified that Jesus had done no wrong.

They didn't say he was sinless, only that he was undeserving of the punishment. The thief didn't witness anything about Jesus that we know of, so how would he know if Jesus was sinless or undeserving of any punishment unless someone told him the reason Jesus was being punished.

The actual case is much longer. I first have to show why Christ is Lord, and what it means if he is Lord, that sinlessness is one of the characteristics of God.

Jesus is not God, he, at most, claimed to be the son of God. So did other Jews, like King David I believe. "Messiah" means king of the Jews, not God. And that's why the Romans got involved, because Roman law prohibited the Jewish monarchy.

Do you want me to go through with this?

Define "Lord" first, then proceed with your proof (if you want). I'm not in this thread to attack your faith, only to defend alcohol/drug users from those who try to use the Bible to persecute them.

[Zero]

I had my first hangover during sermon. It wasnt a nice place to be bombarded with dizziness, cramps, dry mouth and headaches.

All I remember is the line that went something like "(sinners) will be thrown in to firey pit and be condemned forever" as I was about to scream out loud in frustration.

On sundays, I just suffer in my own bed now. Hangovers still suck, but its much better than the first one.

[Ben Kenobi]

There is no indication alcohol was absent...and you still haven't provided evidence it was absent...

I never said alcohol was not present. I just dispute whether people got drunk off the wine Jesus provided.
If wine could look and taste like wine, but not get you drunk, would it not be truly good wine?

I'm not in this thread to attack your faith, only to defend alcohol/drug users from those who try to use the Bible to persecute them.

Attack my faith? Hardly. You've asked some good questions that deserve a proper answer.

However, this is not the right place to discuss these issues. I'll start a thread either tonight or tomorrow.

[Berzerker]

Obiwan -

I never said alcohol was not present. I just dispute whether people got drunk off the wine Jesus provided.

Based on what? Your refusal to accept the possibility Jesus didn't live up to Paul's sermons?

If wine could look and taste like wine, but not get you drunk, would it not be truly good wine?

Nope. Is that what you think the guest was saying when he referred to the wine as "good"? Then what did he mean when he said the host usually brings out the good wine first and saves the inferior wine until after the partyers are well drunk?

Attack my faith? Hardly. You've asked some good questions that deserve a proper answer.

Then have at it, I'll read your evidence for Jesus being "lord" and what that entails.

However, this is not the right place to discuss these issues. I'll start a thread either tonight or tomorrow.

Not really interested, I've been in religious debates and I know people with faith resent being challenged and there's really nothing to gain by the endeavor. You should see how angry Christians get when I explain how Genesis doesn't support their beliefs about God and the universe.

[MRT144]

bezerker, what in the hell is a christian doing using genesis as a refrence for anything.

[Ben Kenobi]

Berz:

I did some more research through commentaries, regarding this passage in question.

You'll be pleased to know your interpretation holds, at least regarding the alcoholic content of the wine.

The hebrew for the word 'drank to fullness,' is the same used for inebriation.

So how does Constable resolve the conflict? He states that providing wine in itself cannot be sinful, because the revellers still have the choice to partake. This answers some of your other points as well.

Therefore, I stand corrected.
You see, some of us Christians can be reasonable.

[Berzerker]

Obiwan -

I did some more research through commentaries, regarding this passage in question.

You'll be pleased to know your interpretation holds, at least regarding the alcoholic content of the wine.

The hebrew for the word 'drank to fullness,' is the same used for inebriation.

Yeah, I used Strong's Concordance and it said "well-drunk" meant...well...you know, lol. But I'd be interested in what you found or where.

So how does Constable resolve the conflict? He states that providing wine in itself cannot be sinful, because the revellers still have the choice to partake. This answers some of your other points as well.

Who's "Constable"? But that would mean dealing cocaine wasn't sinful either because the buyer has the choice. I'd agree, but I also see the point Paul was making about not adding to someone's addiction.

Therefore, I stand corrected.
You see, some of us Christians can be reasonable.

I knew you were reasonable from an earlier thread. You even did my research for me, hehe.

[Ben Kenobi]

Constable is a well-known author of biblical commentaries. I got a cd of his entire works for christmas, extremely valuable for this sort of thing. Generally, he touches upon most of the issues related to each passage in the entire bible.
I like him because he's more fundy than I am.

I'd agree, but I also see the point Paul was making about not adding to someone's addiction.

We're falliable human beings, so it pays to be careful.

But that would mean dealing cocaine wasn't sinful either because the buyer has the choice.

Why do people use cocaine? To get high? Wine can serve as a drink, for nourishment. Different substances deserve differing treatment. Also, one has to remember that the wine used back then was fermented grape juice, still alcholic, but much weaker than the wines of our time.

[Zero]

Cocaine can serve as a stimulant... aka coffee. I think if I remember correctly, the Incan labourers chewed onto Cocaine leaves in order to have the boost they need to work hard.




drugs are good. m'kay?

[Felch]

Coca leaves are less addictive than the drug extracted from them. I'd chew the leaves, but as a personal choice I stay away from the powder.

One benefit of cocaine that people forget though is that it was the world's first local anaesthetic. Before cocaine, the only way to operate without severe pain was to knock the patient out with chloroform or ether. That has a high risk of killing the subject.

And obi, fermented grape juice is still how they make wine. Granted they didn't have the fortified stuff back then, but most people today don't think of Mad Dog 20/20 when they think of wine. As a Catholic, we use wine in our Eucharistic celebration, and it is about 12% alcohol by volume, IIRC.

[Ben Kenobi]

As a Catholic, we use wine in our Eucharistic celebration, and it is about 12% alcohol by volume, IIRC.

Felch X,
I wouldn't know. I've never had Catholic communion.

Besides, I merely said lower alcohol content, not none.

drugs are good. m'kay?

Do tell, what are you on?