Resistance to the French threat mounting!

[Japher]

VanguardSpiff: don't let these people get to you: while thier "opinions" are sadly a bit too common, the American people have the attentiona spans of flies. A couple of years, and boom, only the most stubborn wil care, and those are the folk that you will never win anyway.

I got halfway through that paragraph. How 'bout that for attention span?

Did someone say MacDonalds?? Are they still serving French Fries?!

Yeah, it is a shame that the Danish pizza guy won't let them eat there. What they really need to do is set up some special camps that they can go to in order to get Danish pizza... Yeah, that's the ticket.

As you can see I think it is all Banana's, and Vanguard, you will do well to listen Gepap; us Americans are so ignorant anyway, and what is worse than idiots with guns?...hmmm... how 'bout Germans with guns? Or even better French with guns, heck, it is dangerous to give a gun to someone who doesn't know how to use one!

Really, it is a true crime being commited by that pizza man. Yet, it is good to know that us Americans have a little company when we encounter those who call us racist.

[PLATO]

GePap: I'll agree that the US admin has been poor at consensus building. I would find it doubtful that they did not consult with allies at all prior to developing policy. For all of those twelve years Iraq has not complied with UN resolutions, thus prompting additional resolutions (17 passed to date and one on the table). Although the French have contributed to Iraqi containment, the bulk of the job has been done with US forces. No one seems to appreciate that Iraq has been firing on our aircraft (which are their under UN auspices) more and more frequently. Evidence has been presented that shows that Iraq is building or at the very least attempting to build an arsenal of wmd. I agree that they have been contained; I cannot agree that this is a static situation and that containment will hold. When current Iraqi leadership has thought victory possible in the past they have not hesitated to attack two of their neighbors.

People say that the French are calling for a calm and measured response. I think that the world has been pursuing that course for the last twelve years. At some point doesn't the world have to decide to take action?

BTW I do agree that their is no love lost between Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein, but their IS evidence of communication between them. (Yes, I know...the current situation probably is percipitating it)

As for the Iraqi people...what a horrible plight is theirs! I truly feel for these people. This is one of the great benefits that would arise out of a US victory. For them to have a chance at true freedom and democratic rule is a tremendous boon. Unfortunately there are people around the world experiencing their same situation. The reason nothing is done for them militarily is National Sovereignty. It is all the other reasons PLUS the human plight that makes "regime change" the only option. (Please note...I am for regime change, not war. War seems to be the only option left for accomplishing this. If there was TRULY another way, I would support it)

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Stefu]

In Finnish language, Denmark is 'Tanska' and France is 'Ranska'.

THAT'S AN ONE LETTER DIFFERENCE!

I think this is someone we all should consider.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
As for the Iraqi people...what a horrible plight is theirs!

Yes, the fact that you destroyed their water purification plants is really hurting them.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Yes, the fact that you destroyed their water purification plants is really hurting them.

I'm sure that it is. Cetainly their leadership had nothing to do with us doing that of course.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
For them to have a chance at true freedom and democratic rule is a tremendous boon. Unfortunately there are people around the world experiencing their same situation. The reason nothing is done for them militarily is National Sovereignty.

You are confusing 'freedom' with 'liberty'. Freedom *IS* National Souvereignity. Freedom of having your own government without outside interference is what the US are *trying to take away* from Iraq.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
Cetainly their leadership had nothing to do with us doing that of course.

Their leadership is *NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS*.

[Spiffor]

Yes, the fact that Bin Laden destroyed thetwin towers is really hurting Americans.

I'm sure that it is. Cetainly our leadership had nothing to do with them doing that of course.

(Sorry, I just had to take the bait . I hate it when civilian populations suffer from the decisions of their leaders, wherever they come from )

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


You are confusing 'freedom' with 'liberty'. Freedom *IS* National Souvereignity. Freedom of having your own government without outside interference is what the US are *trying to take away* from Iraq.

You are gravely confused. If that government was the choice of the Iraqi people , then that would be an exercise of their freedom. You are equating freedom with totalitarianism.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Their leadership is *NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS*.

In principal I agree. However, when that leadership attacks my countries allies and threatens my home, it damn well becomes my business!

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
You are equating freedom with totalitarianism.

You are confusing freedom with democracy.

And what Iraqis want, I am sure, is not so much 'democracy-American-style', a doubtful good at best, but a better life.

Such as they had before the sanctions.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
However, when that leadership attacks my countries allies and threatens my home, it damn well becomes my business!

Kuwait, when attacked, was not your ally. Saddam is not a threat. Even if he had Wommdies, he can´t reach you.

[DanS]

And what Iraqis want, I am sure, is not so much 'democracy-American-style', a doubtful good at best, but a better life.

Sure they want it. Everybody in the mideast does.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


You are confusing freedom with democracy.

And what Iraqis want, I am sure, is not so much 'democracy-American-style', a doubtful good at best, but a better life.

Such as they had before the sanctions.

I am not proposing "democracy-American-style". I fail to understand how you equate freedom with oppression. Certainly the Iraqi's were "free" to NOT invade Kuwait, or were "free" to have followed the terms of the UN ceasefire that they signed. Or did you forget that these things CAUSED the sanctions?

[Spiffor]

More serious response to Plato now :

Actually, the aims of France and of the US are clearly different. For 12 years, nothing has been done. You can't argue peaceful solutions have been looked for, because simply no solutions have been looked for. Nobody cared about Iraq, except when US/UK occasionally bombed it.
The Bush admin brought Iraq back to the international frontstage, which is a good thing per se, because now countries are looking for solutions.

However, France and the US cannot agree on the same solution, simply because it doesn't agree on the problem. It is commonly said in France that the embargo did nothing but help Saddam to keep his gripe on power, and had the French been at the helm, all sanctions would have been lifted for years now.
France has been dragged into the crisis by the US insistance to revive it, and feels it has to take a stance. So, France provides solutions for the softest problem : disarming Saddam. The Bush admin want a regime change through war. These are 2 completely different goals, and 2 completely different ways to reach them.

I happen to exceptionally agree on the anti-war stance of my government (I oppose Chirac on about everything else), even if I know it is hypocritical and as self-interested as the US one.
If there is any morally "good" stance in this matter, it is the German position which seems to be the only one genuinely opposed to the incoming slaughter on principle.

I believe Saddam will comply to everything the UN / France demands, because the UN cannot demand more than disarming, and Saddam wants to keep his throne above all. Every time he cooperates with the inspectors, he gets more legitimacy in all countries who don't want his regime toppled through war (i.e everywhere except the US).
It is impossible to Saddam to comply to US demands, because it would mean to go into exile or commit suicide (literally).

Oh, and regarding "appeasement", please do not compare this here situation with appeasement. It has nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, NOTHING to do with it ! (sorry, I'm tired to write this every two posts). Read this very interesting article, and you will understand why : http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...898341,00.html (all point of views are represented, despite the article coming from the Guardian)